In this interview, Chief Ayo Ogunlade, a minister in the late Gen. Sani Abacha and Gen. Olusegun Obasanjo administrations shares his experiences with Tunde Ajaja
As the only son of your parents, how was growing up like?
I am a thoroughbred Ekiti man, but was accidentally born in Lagos in March 18, 1931. My father was from Ilupeju-Ekiti and my mother was from Oye-Ekiti, but I grew up in the Gold Coast, now called Ghana. I used the word accidental because my mother had reached menopause when she became pregnant and gave birth to me. She lived in Ghana with my father and it was during one of her business trips to Nigeria that the boat she boarded landed in Marina and she went into labour. So, I was born in Lagos but bred in Ghana. My father’s age was above 60 years when I was born and as his only son, he used to call me his brother, though I had sisters too. I learnt that my immediate elder sister nearly killed me because all attention shifted from her to me.
You started your primary education in Ghana, how was it then?
I started my primary school in the Gold Coast and got up to Standard Five and I was preparing to go to secondary school when my mother said I should come back to Nigeria to continue my education. So we came back leaving my father there. He cried when I told him I was leaving but he had to let go. We came back to Oye-Ekiti where my grandmother lived. In those days, one could not be admitted to teachers’ college without a standard six certificate and teaching experience and I had not finished my standard six then, so, I went to Methodist Primary School, Ifaki-Ekiti to complete standard school and then went to Aaye-Ekiti to serve as a pupil teacher for a year. My mother wanted me to attend Christ School but my nephew said I was too tall for my age. Eventually, I went to Wesley College in 1950.
What was your experience at the tertiary level?
I was the college organist and senior prefect in my final year. That was the first time one person was combining the two offices. I went to Nigerian College of Arts, Science and Technology for my ‘A’ levels, before I went to the University of Ibadan in 1959 where I studied English Language. I went for my Master’s in Mass communication with specialisation in electronic media at Yale Foreign Students Institute in New Haven, Connecticut, United States and I did an internship with the Voice of America. I didn’t want to teach, so I decided to go into broadcasting which I had always loved.
For you to have travelled in those days means you were from a privileged background.
Yes. You can say that. Though, after primary school, the rest of my education was at public expense but my mother did her best when she needed to. When I was admitted to Wesley College in 1950, I got the Ekiti Native Authority’s Scholarship of £15 per annum which covered everything that I needed then. At the Nigerian College of Arts, Science and Technology, I won the Western Nigeria scholarship, and at the University of Ibadan, my education was on the Federal Government of Nigeria’s scholarship which also took me to the United States. Those were the days positions were waiting for you even before you finished your degree programme. But if you did well in your degree, you could go on for a post graduate programme. I took advantage of that. At the end of my first semester in the US, I got the assistance of the United States Agency for International Development. I can say I am one to whom much was given and who struggled to give much in return.
You were once a journalist, what was the starting point?
I started with the Western Nigeria Broadcasting Corporation and Western Nigeria Television in 1963. I had opportunities that made it possible for me to reach a high level in my career in broadcasting within six months. In 1963, Segun Olusola, who was the executive producer at the corporation, went to join the NBCTV, and being a senior producer and the most qualified, I became the executive producer at WNTV/WNBC three months after I joined the organisation. In March 1964, the head of the Lagos office died, so, they wanted someone who knew Lagos very well to be in charge because much of the revenue for the corporation came from Lagos, so I became Acting Controller of Programmes in six months. So, in six months, I was already on top of my career and that was why I didn’t go for a Ph.D and my stay there was quite an experience which placed me at a very big advantage.
Was that contributory to how you became the Information minister in General Obasanjo’s administration?
It is part of the grace of God. Being the most senior staff at the controller level then, I acted for the General Manager, Teju Oyeleye, whenever he went on study leave or tour. Obasanjo was the Commander, Second Division at Ibadan during the Biafra War in 1966. Obasanjo came to me through a friend, Yinka Johnson. Yinka already told me that the commander of the army in the western group of states wanted to come and see me and I said he was welcome. So Obasanjo came and said the army wanted me to do a programme to help in sensitising the people about the war and that they wanted me to do it myself even though I was the head of the programmes department. I agreed but with the condition that they wouldn’t tell me what to do; they should only tell me what they wanted to achieve and I would advise them on how to get it. That was how I knew him. So, I created a slot which was called You and the War, and all the war commanders were coming on air.
How then were you appointed a minister?
I had moved from broadcasting into the main civil service then. I was an administration officer Class 1 when I was deployed to go and start the Broadcasting Service of Ondo State, which I did. In March 1977, I had just returned from Jos where I had gone to attend a meeting organised by the Broadcasting Organisation of Nigeria, and I was watching the 9pm news when it was announced that the federal executive council had been dissolved and that five members were dropped and replaced. I heard my name, G.A. Ogunlade, as one of the replacements. I hurried to the house of the head of service to tell him. He too didn’t know it was me until he called the governor to confirm.
How did you feel when it was confirmed that it was you?
(Indignant) I was very angry because I had always avoided being involved in political matters and public offices. So I asked the head of service if I should go. He said the governor would receive the signal the following day and really, the signal came. In fact, the letter instructed the governor to arrange for me to appear in Lagos for the swearing-in. That was how I became a member of the federal executive council.
You spent only one year as the minister, why were you removed so quickly?
We wanted every state to have their own radio station without interference from other states and some military governors were very vociferous in attacking that policy and some other things I was doing as the minister then. The final straw was when I went on an official visit to information institutions and installations in Kaduna State and I paid a courtesy visit to the administrator, Usman Jibrin. Kaduna was the centre of political activities then and Jibrin, in the presence of the press, said so many things about the Federal Government and expressed his dissatisfaction with the reforms we were doing in the information sector. I was forced to reply him there and everything I could have explained to him in his office was said there in response to him. When I got back to Lagos, Obasanjo had watched what happened on television and he called me to ask if it was true. I learnt he summoned Jibrin to the government house that day and fired him immediately. I learnt that some administrators said at the Supreme Military Council meeting held the following day that I, being a bloody civilian among them, was wielding so much power and insisted that I must be removed. So, I was told by his Chief of Staff, Shehu Yar ‘Adua, that I had been redeployed back to my station in Ondo State and to the surprise of many, I felt relieved. Obasanjo and I are still very close till today and we hold nothing against ourselves.
You must have enjoyed the paraphernalia of office.
It wasn’t ceremonious as it is now. As a minister then, you only had a car, a driver and free ministerial quarters at Ikoyi. Not like today when you have ministers blaring siren and moving in convoys. There was no police officer standing behind you when you were talking. All we had was the dignity of office; being a member of the Federal Executive Council of Nigeria.
You also served under the late head of state, Gen. Sani Abacha, how did you meet him?
I never met Abacha before I became a minister under him. I was only making my contribution at the Constituent Assembly between 1994 and 1995 when some friends told me that they learnt that I was being considered for a ministerial position but that they were surprised that I didn’t seem to care. I asked them how I could care about something that I didn’t know and truly, I didn’t know. But when it was eventually announced, people congratulated me. I was made the minister of national planning. If anything at all, Abacha is one clear cut illustration of what Mark Anthony said in Julius Caesar: The evil that men do lives after them; it is the good that is buried with them, so let it be with Caesar, let it be with Abacha . I have no regret at all being co-opted, as it were, into Abacha’s regime because I never lobbied for it.
He has been accused of looting the resources of the country, don’t you still have regret working with him?
The fact is that I don’t regret serving in the Abacha regime. He gave me a free hand to operate and serve according to my conscience which has also helped me till today. I told him how I would like to operate and he agreed.
But he has been accused of being corrupt?
Good. That is one side of the coin. No currency can be legal tender unless it has two sides and there is no leader in this country who has escaped that. But for Gowon, Lagos would have grounded to a halt. The flyovers and bridges such as the second mainland bridge were Gowon’s work. He fought a three-year war to keep Nigeria one but when he was toppled, nobody listed all the good things that he did. It was only the bad ones that were listed.
Do you agree that Abacha was a dictator?
Every military government is a dictatorship because nobody puts them there; they put themselves there. So you cannot single one of them out and say he is a dictator. Who wasn’t a dictator? Who chose Gowon? Who voted Aguiyi Ironsi into power? Who voted any of the military rulers in? To say one of them is a dictator is merely singling somebody out of a whole chain of dictators. We run away from the truth and choose the one which is convenient for us. There is no one of them who can claim that he wasn’t a dictator. Tell me one and I will tell you what he did. Just like Gowon has two sides, we are talking about his good sides but we are not talking about the good sides of the others. I don’t subscribe to the fact that only Abacha was the dictator military head of state. By their training, upbringing, attitude, defence and protection of their future, they are trained to take and give orders.
Another $458m of his loot was withheld by the US government, and his tenure has been described as the most corrupt ever. What do you say to that?
Blessed are those whose iniquities are covered. I don’t know how you want to interpret that. When you set out to dig out the bad side of something, it is only that evil side that you will see, you won’t find the other side.
Why do you think people are focusing on him?
They are not focusing on him. Let somebody like Abubakar do something that could make his opponents dig out his other side of the coin and you would find out that there are things which could come out of it.
There is a view that everyone who worked with Abacha tends to be rich for life because of what they benefited under his government?
I can speak for myself. I had built my house before I became a minister under Abacha. I moved into my house in 1985 and I became a minister under him in 1995. The only addition to this house since I moved in is the chapel which was built 10 years ago. I used to have two cars; now I have one. I don’t have a security guard; I don’t have a bank account abroad. It is over-generalisation to say that everyone who served under Abacha became multi-billionaires. We even joke here in the house and my family members ask why I don’t have a house in Lagos, Abuja and other areas like others and I tell them that if I had those things, I could be in Kirikiri by now. But so far, nobody has invited me for questioning.
Do you have any regret to have worked with him?
I felt fulfilled because I had the opportunity to help in salvaging a sinking and bankrupt economy and the opportunity of being part of a team that rescued Nigerian economy. In terms of inflation, consumer price index, budgeting process, etc, we did our best. The evil that men do is what is living after Abacha. The good that he did was buried with him. I’m not saying that Abacha was a saint or that he didn’t do those things that people are seeing now, but what I’m saying is that apart from all those things that are coming out, he also did many good things worth mentioning. If you dig into Babangida’s regime with the aim of finding out what he did wrong, you will write volumes. It applies to all of them, even our revered sage, Chief Obafemi Awolowo.
As a minister, how were you able to manage women who would want to have a share of the fame associated with the office?
Well, women were coming but I had no time or need for girlfriends and I had nothing to offer them because ministry of national planning had no projects to execute. I didn’t construct roads or dams or build houses, I only coordinated the plans of other ministries based on what was available. So, I didn’t have much patronage, as it were, because I had no contract to award.
How did you end up having more than one wife?
I think it was by choice. My mother was an influential and successful trader but she was too protective, choosy and snobbish. She sent my girlfriends and the ladies that admired me away. I had to defy her to marry a lady I loved secretly when I was 26 years old. She had a baby girl for me but she slept with two other men and had babies for them. That ended the relationship. When I came back from America in 1963, I made up my mind to remain single and never to marry again because I thought no woman could be trusted. But when I found a girl that I thought my mother would like, I took her home and married her in 1965. My first wife was a senior civil servant travelling here and there in the convoy of the governor and other top shots and it remained in my mind that what happened to me once shouldn’t happen again. So, I made up my mind to marry a second wife which I did. When I told them that I wanted to go back home, my first wife declined coming with me but the second came with me. I insisted on returning home because I wanted to be familiar with my roots. I wanted to go home so that my children could have a father to meet at home. Though she doesn’t live with me, she visits and we still talk everyday. Both of them are over 70 years now.
Was there opposition?
Of course, naturally. But they are both born again Christians; one is a daughter of a missionary and the other had a degree in theology. So, we are all living in peace and I have no regret at all and I always thank God for the peace we have always enjoyed.
As an elder in church, how comfortable are you with having two wives?
I am only an elder in church by virtue of my age, that’s all. When the early Christians came, they didn’t drive the elders with more than one wife away from church. Even the Bible says when we get to heaven, there is no marriage. My bishop and archbishop know that I have two wives and they don’t discriminate against me because of that.
How many years would you like to live?
I am ready to go tomorrow. It is not about my wish. It’s as long as it pleases my maker, which could be immediately you leave here. But strangely enough, my children don’t even think I should ever die, they think I should live forever. If death comes anytime, I am ready because there is nothing that God could do for any human being that he has not done for me. I have children, grand children and great grandchildren and they are all fine and at peace with one another.
How would you like to be buried?
I have told my children that I must be buried within one month and nobody should spend money to put ceramic tiles in the tomb where I will be buried; that is wasteful spending. The Bible says dust thou art, to dust thou shall return, so, why should they put me in a place where I cannot turn to dust, and they shouldn’t just leave a slab on it, they should fill it with sand and even dance on it possibly until they hear the wood of the casket break. I want to die when I will not be a burden to my children or somebody that they would have to hide.
Is there anything you wish you had which you still hope for?
All I want is for God to let me still be around to see a new Nigeria in which everybody regards his neighbour as a neighbour and blood relation and where politics will not be the only way to wealth, relevance, fame and glamour. I hope it happens during my time, though I have my doubts, I pray that I may see it happen.
Do you do any form of exercise?
Yes. I walk around a lot, drive myself and I still do at least twenty press-ups every morning, even at 83 years old. The only thing is that my wife is often worried when I don’t eat in the morning, and why should I eat when I don’t feel hungry?
You were a minister when Ekiti State was created; what did you do to contribute to its creation?
Those who are very close to me then used to say, rhetorically, that, are my people aware that Ekiti State was created for me? Most of the people who claimed to have fought for the creation of the state actually worked and they tried but nothing would have come out of it if they didn’t have somebody in there who was pressing the button. The Ewi of Ado Ekiti knows some of my contributions. There was hardly a week that the Ewi would not call me to know the update. My colleagues in the cabinet almost criticised me for mentioning the issue too much. I don’t publicise my contributions or achievements. I don’t put such things down and I don’t talk about them.
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