Professor Peter Okebukola, former executive secretary, National Universities Commission in this interview with ADEOLA BALOGUN shares his experiences

You came out of secondary school as the best graduating student, was it books, books and books for you?

Yes in part. Doing well in school is a function of a number of factors. Ability is one. Diligence is another. God’s grace is the overarching knot tying all together. Examples are replete of students who read and read and read, yet they flunk exams. Yet some others do not read as much and they end up top of the class. In my case, I believe all the factors converged in my favour. Yes, I was a bookworm hence I was made the library prefect in all the secondary schools I attended. I also never failed to keep God in the picture.

How did it feel to become a school teacher at 19?

It felt good as I was assigned to teach more serious students than we have today. I was about six years older than the average student in my class and having grown up in the barracks, I was stern, took no nonsense, yet convivial. I had my first taste of teaching at Holy Saviour’s College, Mushin from 1969 to 1970 after my higher school certificate. We had a year to keep busy before admission to the university by direct entry. My passion to share knowledge with people around me was the propellant for making me like teaching. Although I was a science teacher, I was assigned to teach all manner of subjects including history, geography, economics and literature. My students and I had fun in these classes. My horizon of knowledge of other subjects was expanded since I had to read outside my comfort zone.

Would you say teaching was what you loved doing as a young man?

I took a liking to teaching when I taught my first class in December 1969 and saw the glow and excitement on the faces of my students. Long before this time, my passion ranged widely from being a train driver to medicine and geology. You know as kids, you wished you were everything but God knows the end from the beginning and has His own beautiful plan for everyone. The beautiful plan of God for me is to be a teacher.

How fulfilled were you as a school teacher in terms of remuneration and incentives?

I earned £19.10 as an HSC teacher at Holy Saviour’s College, Mushin, Lagos. It was more than enough for me as I was living with my parents. After graduating from the University of Ibadan in 1973 and completed NYSC in 1974 (we were the first set and very decently remunerated), I was employed as Education Officer in the Federal Ministry of Education. The pay was quite good and the incentives of a car and some housing grant were attractive. When the trajectory landed me as lecturer in a college of education and then a university, I was quite satisfied with my earning. I have always kept my needs to be few and will not “long throat” for things beyond my earning power. So as a teacher, I have received some of my rewards on earth.

What made you to cross over from being a school teacher to first lecturer at a college of education and then in the university?

I had acquired higher degrees and I had to move on to where my degrees match the demand of the job. Since entering the University of Ibadan, I promised my father that I would strive, God helping me, to get the highest degree I could obtain in my discipline. My desire to undertake higher degree studies from 1974 could not be realised until 1978 because I was pinned down in Ekiti trying to win students for science. I was head of the science department at the C.A.C. Teachers’ College, Efon-Alaye and at the same time, concurrently teaching science to final year classes in far-flung locations in the present Ekiti State. I taught Physics in Moba Grammar School, Otun; Biology at Aramoko District Commercial College; and Chemistry at Okemesi Grammar School. For four years, it was never a dull moment and I am delighted that many of my former students rose to great heights in science-related careers. The constant prodding of two of my colleagues encouraged me to face the higher degree track quicker than I did. Mr. Teniola of C.A.C. Teachers College never stopped urging me to go for my master’s degree. Professor Ayo Fatubarin was a huge pillar of support and stimulant for me to take the doctorate degree.

When you were teaching, did you ever think you could become a professor?

Of course, that was my goal. Remember I told you that I promised my father that I will be the best I can be in my profession, God helping me. By the way, who will not want to aspire to get to the zenith of his profession? In my case as a teacher, it is being a professor.

What would you say accounted for your rapid rise from being a lecturer to an acting VC in a relatively short time?

Promotion does not come from east or west but from God. So the straightforward answer to your question is that God accounted for it. I did my best in terms of hard work as a researcher and teacher and God crowned my efforts with success. God used Professor Pai  Obanya who was Dean of Education and Professor ‘Folabi Olumide who was Vice-Chancellor for my appointment in LASU as senior lecturer in 1984. I went through the ranks as head of department, dean of faculty and when Professor Enitan Bababunmi became Vice-Chancellor, he nominated me Deputy Vice-Chancellor. When he left office in 1996, I was appointed by Col. Olagunsoye Oyinlola who was military administrator of Lagos State as Acting Vice-Chancellor.

Why were you not confirmed as VC in LASU?

I did not apply for the post.

Did you encounter the unusual politics that is associated with selection of VCs?

The politics I encountered was not unusual. Although I did not apply for the job as I mentioned to you earlier, I was part of the process which featured the same rhythm of ethnicity and mudslinging especially by the indigenous staff leading as you have in many universities, an outsider snatching the job.

How did you feel when you were appointed the executive secretary of the NUC?

I felt it was a call to national duty when Professor Babalola Borishade as honourable Minister of Education who I never met before, recommended me in spite of huge lobby for the post and President Obasanjo approved. Before I came into office, I had fair familiarity with the inner working of NUC and the challenges of the Nigerian university system. I felt it was time that I contributed my quota to ridding the system of some of its ills.

What would you point out as your most outstanding achievements at NUC?

Trumpet blowing is not my forte and hence I will desist from making claims to any achievement. My colleagues in NUC and in the Nigerian university system are better placed to assess my stewardship. It is often the case that trumpet blowing is a sign of inferiority complex. Let others blow the trumpet if there is anything you have done that is worth announcing to the world. If you just must extract something from me and will want me to blow the trumpet in a low tone, I will say that NUC while I was there succeeded in sharpening the teeth of the quality assurance apparatus of the commission. We also expanded the international horizon of our outreach.

Was it easy to superintend over quality assurance of the nation’s universities during your six-year term at NUC? Tell us your experience

It was not easy since people will want to continue in their old ways by obeying Newton’s first law of motion. You need harsh forces to steer them away from unacceptable ways.  Still within the non-boastful framework, I claim no singular accomplishment. It was a corporate achievement. NUC was unbending in its drive to instil quality into the Nigerian university system. We chased out satellite campuses and invigorated the accreditation process. A lot of the credit can be ascribed to the leadership of Alhaji Maitama Sule as Board Chairman and with personalities like Professor Tekena Tamumo, Professor Cyril Onwumechili, Her Excellency, Mrs Victoria Gowon, and other board members as well as  Mrs. Ayimonche. In my judgement, NUC had the most dedicated and qualified staff in the federal civil service.

Looking at the various universities in Nigeria today, would you say the NUC has achieved much in setting the standards?

Yes, NUC has done creditably. In 50 years, the commission has set enviable standards for the university system and taken steps to enforce these standards. A world without NUC in Nigeria will be utter chaos for the Nigerian university system.

If you were asked to go back to NUC now, what would you do differently?

I will not go back because I have not forgotten anything in the office that I want to go back to pick. Talking seriously, it is for us to advise our successors in office and pray for them. One day is different from the next, so leadership has to be context dependent. The environment of the Nigerian university system while I was in office is different from when Professor Okojie is in office and when he leaves office, the situation to be faced by his successor will also be different. The critical needs of a typical Nigerian university today are mainly quality teachers in the right quantity and facilities befitting of a modern university. As you would have noticed, these are issues that are currently being addressed by the Okojie administration. When he leaves office, there could be other emerging needs which the person who has taken over will have to face squarely.

How come you are linked with many newly established universities?

It is quite exciting for me to be connected with new universities and be part of their early beginning and formative years. I am linked with them as the proprietors would want me to share my little experience in bringing up the new institutions. The analogy of nurturing a baby to fit in with your anticipated mould is apt. The new baby is amenable to being moulded along the path that will allow you realise your vision and mission.

As someone involved with its establishment, what accounted for the way UNIOSUN began as a high fee paying university just as a private institution?

Governor Olagunsoye Oyinlola wanted a world-class university for Osun State and he charged us with the responsibility of setting one up. He will not want to be associated with any second-grade university hence he gave us the resources to put up state-of-the art facilities  and recruit excellent quality staff. He gave us free hand to run the university. We were torn between charging lesser fees and ending up with the same run-of-the-mill graduates as many public universities or charging higher than other state universities and guaranteeing quality delivery of university education. We settled for the latter and have no regrets. Quality does not come cheap. We stressed that if the state was willing to take up the full financial responsibility for all students in the university, it must be prepared to give us the money. As you know, Osun State cannot afford to give us all the money that we need in the face of other competing demands for basic education, health care, roads, water, transport and other needs of the good people of the state. We were able to get the Oyinlola administration to pay all staff salaries and running cost. All local governments in Osun State supported with monthly grant for capital development. The balance had to be paid by somebody, in this case the students. We are proud of Governor Oyinlola for giving us the latitude and proud of the UNIOSUN that we delivered to the people of Osun State.

Will it be correct to say that your relationship with Oyinlola accounted for your invitation for UNIOSUN when he was governor in Osun?

That is correct. I cherish the relationship and will forever treasure it. He is a man of great vision with immense fear of God. Though an army General, he is a perfect gentleman whose words are his bond. He is thoroughly misunderstood by many who are not close to him.

What is the magic of your youthful looks?

I am not too sure I am looking youthful. I will be 63 years old on February 17, 2014 and I think I am looking my age. However, if you say I am looking young since beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I will give all the glory to God.

Have you always been religious even as a young man?

Yes I have. I was born into The Apostolic Church. My parents were ministers of the church and I was thoroughly soaked into the worship and doctrines and served well in the choir. I went to catholic primary and secondary schools and also got deep grounding in Catholicism. Rev Father Stephens, the principal of my school in Sapele, saw in me traits of being a good reverend father and I was listed to go to the seminary in Ireland. The civil war thwarted the plan. Since 1975, I have been in The Apostolic Faith fold, enjoying the sound doctrines and I have continued to see the goodness of the Lord.

In your university days, were you active in extra curricular activities?

At the University of Ibadan, we had a rather crowded time-table for my programme freeing us with little time for non-academic things. I could only squeeze time to be a member of the Student Representative Council, representing Independence Hall.

How was UI when you were there as an undergraduate?

I was in UI as an undergraduate between 1970 and 1973. Those were glorious days in terms of quality of education and student life. UI was a truly international university drawing staff from all over the world. Laboratories, libraries and classrooms compared favourably with such facilities in universities in Europe and North America. Class sizes were small and social vices hardly recorded. Our halls of residence were like 3-star hotels and we were treated like kings and queens. There were no interruptions to the academic calendar. A few weeks after the session was over, parents and students got copies of examination results.  Those were memorable years.

Years after graduation, what can you say about UI and Nigeria’s university education system in general?

About 1980, the quality of education in the Nigerian university system with UI as a key element, started taking a plunge for the worse. Facilities got dilapidated. Over-enrolment exerted its toll, academic calendar became unstable, cultism and other social vices crept in so also is the depressed quality and quantity of teachers. In the last twelve years through the quality assurance efforts of NUC and other stakeholders, things have started improving. The rate of improvement is rather slow. I wish the pace will quicken.

As a young man, what would you regard as your weakness: drinking, womanising or smoking?

I was never into drinking, smoking or womanising as a young man even when we had unhindered liberty in the university. My Christian upbringing was inhibitory to such practices. What I may regard as my weakness, if it can be labelled as such, is reading too much. I could bury myself in my room for days reading novels, my science books and books on a wide range of subjects. Most times, I was not hungry for food but hungry for books.

Are you actually retired in the real sense of it?

No, I am not retired. I am still on active duty as a staff of Lagos State University where I teach in the Department of Science and Technology Education. I am proud to be a staff of LASU and happy about the quality of our undergraduate and postgraduate programmes. I now teach mainly postgraduate courses and supervise Masters and PhD in three areas- computer science education, science education and environmental education. I am also part of facilitating the LASU Science and Technology Education Research Group which is gradually evolving to a world-renowned research outfit.

You said you are proud of LASU but a former VC once reportedly berated quality of education at the institution

Yes, at some point, we had issues with the quality of education delivered in the satellite campuses. The main campuses at Ojo, Ikeja and Epe were quite outstanding. Now that LASU has heeded the directive of NUC to close the satellite campuses, we have started getting the old glory back.

What would you regard as your happiest day in life?

Happiest day in my life was when I received the gift of salvation. I also recall another happy day when God saved me from the jaws of death during the Civil War. I lost my parents towards the close of 1999. I regret their not being part of my later success stories which were the dividends of their prayers. May their souls continue to rest in perfect peace.

Now that Osun State has cut the fees in UNIOSUN, how do you feel about it?

I feel pleased in the understanding that someone is making up the difference. I would imagine that this will be the state government.

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Alhaji Lateef Jakande, a veteran journalist and politician, was a former Governor of Lagos State between 1979 and 1983. Jakande is in his twilight years, but his name still arouses a longing in the people of the state, particularly those who are old enough to have witnessed his administration. Many residents recall his housing projects and qualitative, yet free education programme that seemed to be the hallmark of his administration. Three decades have passed since his departure from the office of the governor, but his legacies still stand firm in various places across the state. Examples are the many housing units dubbed ‘Jakande estates’ which were built during his administration for low and middle income earners. His commitment towards education was also well known as Jakande made a name for himself as an advocate of free education in schools. Many of the schools built during his administration still dot the metropolis till today.

While in government, Jakande shunned the paraphernalia of the office for a modest lifestyle. Whereas many past governors and other public office holders live in affluence, Jakande retired to his Ilupeju residence in Lagos, where he is often sighted, seated on the balcony in the evenings. A military coup in December 1983 scuttled his administration and even after the take-over, Jakande endured a tough time. He was charged, prosecuted and convicted of treason, but later pardoned by the military government.

Jakande is a hero of the people, particularly in Lagos. However, his decision to accept an appointment by a former military Head of State, late General Sani Abacha, in 1993 was not well received by the public.

When Saturday PUNCH approached Jakande for an interview, he agreed. But after two appointments which he had to reschedule due to other commitments, Jakande asked our correspondent to leave the questions with him so he could respond to them in his free time. Our correspondent volunteered to leave his e-mail address but his personal assistant said everything would have to be done by hard copy as Jakande did not have internet facilities at home.

A few days later when Jakande replied, our correspondent was surprised that his responses were short and crisp. His workers explained that the former governor was too old to give lengthy responses. “He won’t write more than this; you know he’s old,” one of them said.

In this interview, Alhaji Jakande shares his experiences with GBENRO ADEOYE

You appear to be living a simple lifestyle, do you have satisfaction?

I am very satisfied with my life.

You’re 84 years old. How has the journey been for you?

I have good cause to thank God for His mercy on me throughout my life.

Today, governors and other public office holders complain of inadequate resources. How were you able to build so many schools and housing estates during your time as Lagos governor, was more money available to you?

I was able to build so many buildings and houses by mobilising all necessary funds from both the private and public sectors to execute the programme.

Your children attended public schools. How do you feel today that leaders send their children abroad to school?

I feel that it is wrong and unfair for leaders to educate their children abroad while other children are educated in Nigeria. It is not fair.

Even the estates you built then are still the ones that low and medium income earners can afford as the ones built by the state these days are only affordable to the rich. How do you feel about this?

I believe that the government at every level has a duty to provide housing for all classes of people. Housing is very important.

Many states in the country have adopted different models of free education, including Lagos State, how do their programmes compare with your free education policy?

I do not know enough about the free education programmes of the present governments, so I cannot comment on it.

Many have questioned the free education policy of some of the states as lacking in quality. For instance, Saturday PUNCH recently ran reports about public secondary schools in Lagos where students sit on the floor and on windows during classes. What do you think about this kind of free education?

I am sorry that there are some state government schools in Lagos State where children sit on the floor to receive lectures. If I know the school, I shall contact the governor to see what we can do to provide desks and chairs for the children.

Students in the Lagos State University which you established now pay up to N250,000 as tuition fee. Do you think that free education at all levels of education is possible?

Yes, I am very sure that this country can and should provide free education at all levels. Nigeria has the resources.

What difference is there between the Lagos of yesterday and that of today?

Lagos is growing and developing in every aspect of its economy and I am happy about it.

Some people say you should not have accepted the position of Minister of Works under late General Abacha, since he was seen to have thwarted the country’s pursuit towards democracy by refusing to swear in Chief Moshood Abiola as our democratically elected president. Do you regret accepting the offer?

I accepted the invitation to join the military government of (a former military Head of State) Sani Abacha because I wanted to use the opportunity to pursue my programme of free education and affordable housing and I succedded in doing so. He did not stop me. I am grateful to God Almighty for helping me to execute my programme in both my civilian administration and during the military intervention.

What was your experience like working with late General Abacha?

I found General Abacha to be honest and hardworking. He supported my programme in every possible way.

You are a veteran journalist having worked at the Daily Service and later at the Nigerian Tribune, where you were made the Editor. What do you think about Nigerian journalism today?

Nigerian journalism is doing well. Our journalism practice and profession compare favourably with that of any other country in the democratic world.

You later established your own newspaper- Lagos News, but it’s no more today, what happened to it?

My Lagos News was vibrant and popular, but I had to close it down for economic reasons. I will soon resume the publication of Lagos News weekly on Monday.

Why do most media houses in Nigeria struggle to survive? Many even struggle to pay their workers. What do you think is the problem?

Most media houses struggle to stand these days truly, but I think that the secret of success is good journalistic practice and efficient management.

What is your opinion of Governor Babatunde Fashola’s government in Lagos?

Governor Babatunde Fashola is doing well. I am proud of him.

In a recent interview with Saturday PUNCH, Dr. Omololu Olounloyo said Chief Awolowo never understood real politics at anytime. You were also close to Chief Awolowo, what do you make of Dr. Olunloyo’s opinion?

Dr. Olunloyo was talking nonsense. Chief Obafemi Awolowo was a great politician who lived and died in total service of the Nigerian people.

You are with the All Progressives Party now, but back then, you were with the Unity Party of Nigeria. Are there similarities between APC and the old UPN, which you once belonged to?

The APC has not reached the level of UPN but it will get there.

You are also famously known as ‘Baba kekere’ (Small man), what’s the story behind the name?

It was Chief Awolowo who gave me the title of Baba kekere when he was Baba Agba. He attended the commissioning of our housing estate in Amuwo Odofin in Lagos. On that occasion, Chief Awolowo said that in Yoruba tradition, Baba kekere was the man immediately next to the Alafin of Oyo.

What do you want to be remembered for?

I want to be remembered for the large number of men and women who would not have achieved their greatness in life but for my free education pregramme and as part of my selfless service to all.

Do you have any regrets in life?

I have no cause for regret. On the contrary, I am forever grateful to God for His mercy and blessing throughout my life.

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All rights reserved. This material, and other digital content on this website, may not be reproduced, published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed in whole or in part without prior express written permission from PUNCH.

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Professor Mopelola Omoegun, Dean, Faculty of Education, University of Lagos, shares her life experiences in this interview with ADEOLA BALOGUN

As a management officer in the faculty, what were the challenges you faced during the strike?

We faced a lot of challenges. Basically, students were supposed to go on their teaching practice which is 12 weeks, and we had thought that the strike would not be prolonged, hoping that they would have enough time to face their teaching practice. I had sleepless nights on how to help the students at the same time not breaking the strike. So, I called the students and explained to them and my members of staff to deliberate on how to help out. I know it was wrong, the union said no, lecturers were not supposed to work and if the students failed to go for the teaching practice then, it meant they had to spend extra year. But I was lucky, everybody cooperated with me. With the Head of Departments, we were able to post students to schools and I met them in one of the private schools. That was how we were able to help and thank God we were proactive, nobody envisaged the strike would be prolonged and the students would have battled an extra year. Another challenge was with the sandwich students who were supposed to be working. We had to arrange outside the campus for them to receive their lectures even though lecturers were not supposed to teach. And if we didn’t take them up during their vacation, it would mean they had to wait for another year. But thank God, I had the support of my colleagues and we solved the problem, even though, the union was not comfortable with us. I got in touch with the state government to secure a place outside but near the campus where we were asked to pay.

How has it been managing a big faculty as education?

The faculty is the biggest and I tell people that it is the mother of all faculties. It is God that has been helping out and I tell people that I am what I am because of God. To manage the faculty is demanding but I have been able to cope. Again, I didn’t envisage much problem because I have been in education all my life and this has been my faculty ever since. I am more or less an insider as far as this faculty is concerned. After my Grade Two, this has always been my faculty; I had my NCE here, I had my first degree, the second degree, my doctorate, everything here. So by the time I took over as dean, I had studied what was on ground; where we needed changes and I had a focus that I really wanted progress. And by the grace of God, I think I have made a lot of impact in my one and a half years in office. That is why I totally supported the strike because of the state of facilities in universities. Can you imagine, the facilities I met on ground when I came for NCE in 1971, nothing has changed. The same classrooms we were using then are still being used in 2013. In fact, since 1971, we have not had any additional building in the faculty. I remember in my class then, we were only about 10 or 11, now we have about 200 in that same class. I tell people that I have soft spot for the faculty hall because that is where I had my wedding reception in 1975 and it was still the same when I took over as dean. We thank God, we have been able to renovate and upgrade some of the facilities. Some of our lecturers have been provided with offices and the hall has been renovated, courtesy of a telecommunications company.  With the little we have been able to do, students and lecturers are happy and we thank God for that.

Was it your dream to be a teacher?

That is a very interesting question. As a growing child, initially I was sent to the boarding school but I think whatever I am, God made it. My father was not particularly happy to have girls and the first three children were girls. It was part of the culture then that people were not happy having female children. My mother told me the story that by the time she had me, my father was not happy with her. She said she had already been warned that if she had a third female, that might be the end of the journey for her in the family. She said when I turned out to be a female, she became apprehensive and that is why they gave me that name, Mopelola, meaning the number of female children is complete, no extra one. I always share that testimony with people that God turned my name around and to the glory of God, I am now complete in Him. So because we were girls, the first three, my father being a railway man, decided to send us to boarding school to make the best out of us because he so much believed in education. It cost a lot of money to do that in those days and that caused a lot of problem for him in the extended family. As it was the tradition, he was supposed to train his siblings but he chose to train his female children. His other siblings said he was wasting the money he was supposed to give them to train those who would at the end of the day end up in the kitchen. To them, he was wasting the money; he was close to us and he told us the story. One of them who wanted to travel abroad for further studies quarrelled with my dad because he didn’t give him money. My father said he opted to use the money to train his own children, that what he owed them was to train them to school certificate level. My father put us in boarding schools for primary, modern and teacher training education because he believed girls must be teachers. As he told me then, you were either a teacher or a nurse. It was my father who actually prayed that his girls would be teachers. A white teacher in my primary school discovered very early that I would be a great counsellor, but my father said he was not aware of such. My father got me a form for NCE in the University of Lagos and said if I passed, I was going to be a teacher. I went for the exam and out of all of us from Abeokuta, I was one of just three or so that passed and were taken. It was a big ceremony in our church. My father was very excited and that was how I came in for my NCE. I met one of my lecturers who was a counsellor and because of my performance, he said I should come back for my degree in counselling. I came back for the degree and went back to teaching and that was the time of (Lateef) Jakande when school was in shifts in Lagos. I used the opportunity to do my Master’s because I was closing by 11am for the morning shift. I did my Master’s and worked for a private school, Lagos Tutorial College as counsellor and registrar. When I got there, the students population increased so greatly and the school was transformed. I have always been a teacher but my strength is counselling.

Let me take you back, did your father eventually have boys?

Yes, the next two after me were boys and he was happy.

When you were coming to UNILAG for your NCE, what was on your mind?

I wanted to be a great teacher having been trained at the teachers training school and somehow, I loved teaching and helping people. In fact, I don’t think I can do any other job that I will enjoy other than teaching. When I started teaching after my Grade Two, I had some teachers who impacted my life positively like Dr. Omotoso; I loved the way he used to teach us and I emulated him a lot. I don’t use books when teaching and that was the way he taught. He would sit down and teach and talk to people without having to open any book. I was very close to him and he liked me and I had been dreaming to be a teacher like him. By the time I graduated, I came out in flying colours but the problem I had then was mathematics. I didn’t like it but our senior tutor encouraged me that I could not afford to fail maths because then in teachers training, if you failed in one subject, you failed all. And then, if you failed one subject, you won’t get full salary.  With their encouragement and counselling, I got credit in maths and distinction in eight others out of 13 subjects. I loved teaching and I always told my students that, no matter how poor they were, once they attended my class, they would pass. My students used to struggle to make sure they didn’t miss classes and they all passed. Even the science students among them would not want to miss my literature class because of the way I taught.

Some teachers believed in the use of cane, what was your own method?

I have always seen myself as a counsellor, as a friend. A counsellor is your friend and confidant. I relate to students as if they are my friends and children. I draw them close to me and want to know the nature of their problem. I always tell people, if you want to be a successful teacher, you don’t make money your number one consideration. When I go out to help people, I don’t charge because my interest is that I want that person to do well. I would come to their level and organise free lessons for those I didn’t even know. When I was pregnant with my last child around late 1981, I was going to class during my maternity leave because I was teaching final year students and I didn’t want them to fail. I don’t believe in the use of cane; a good teacher earns respect, you don’t demand for it. If students love you, they will listen when you teach. In fact, there was an episode when I was a senior tutor in Government Boys College, to show you how close I was with them to help them, I didn’t use cane. There was a day one of them came to me and said, “Excuse me ma, I saw you yesterday around LUTH, you had a problem with your car; I wanted to wait but I didn’t wait, I just drove off.’ Then, my mother was in the hospital and that was the year she died. I said “why are you telling me?” He said, “just because I am looking at you now and my conscience would not let me be. I saw you but I didn’t wait because I was driving a better car.” So I said “congratulations”. He said this in the presence of other teachers and when they heard my response, they were fuming and said I should punish him for having the audacity to tell me this. I said I didn’t have to beat him because of that. I said I had a message for him and I called him to ask him who owned the car he was driving. He said it was his sister’s car and I then said well, the car that had problem was my own car and that the congratulation I said to him would be meaningful by the time he was able to buy his own car. I said you better go and face your studies to be able to buy your own car. More than 10 years later, I was driving from Oyingbo market with my son, I noticed a car pursuing me and I became disturbed and then began to accelerate until it came to same level with me. By the time I parked, the driver pulled up and came down. I saw a young man in suit and sweating. He said, “Mummy, can you remember me?” It turned out to be the boy and he said he had been trying to see me when he bought the car so that I would say ‘congratulations’ to him. He prostrated and said he would be happy to get the congratulations from me. I hugged him and he said I had to bless the car and we went to a restaurant around where we celebrated. That was the power of words. I don’t believe in the use of cane and I get better result.

What was giving you the push to go on because rewards for teacher had always been very discouraging?

I agree that people will say that teaching has always been looked down upon in terms of remuneration. They say teacher’s reward is in heaven, I don’t share that view. If you do your work well, you get your reward here on earth. That has always been my attitude. Reward personally to me doesn’t have to be monetary or material. I have done a lot of research on that and I tell people that there are three kinds of rewards; it can be social reward, it can be verbal or monetary (material).  So when you talk of verbal, just ordinary ‘thank you’, ‘excellent’ or ‘very good’ are a form of reward and it is satisfying to me and I appreciate it. That is my own way of life; everything should not be money. By the time you make money your number one consideration, you get paid and that is the end. Even if my students give me presents, I want to know if they have started working. That is my own philosophy. I have a kind of fulfillment when I know I have contributed in moulding the life of a successful person.

Even with this kind of wonderful experience, can you recall one or two instances that you felt like quitting the teaching profession?

It has never crossed my mind that I wanted to opt out of teaching. Yes, every profession has its own ups and downs, I can recall one or two unpleasant experiences but then, I have never thought of quitting. I always see such as challenges and as a child of God, there is no challenge that is insurmountable. Getting a job as a lecturer here was very interesting. After my doctorate, I wanted to move from a private institution to the university but I was told there was no vacancy until a woman lecturer who liked me so much offered to resign to create a space for me. She was one of my assessors and she said she was very proud to read my work; she got an offer from UNESCO and decided to give up her post for me. The advert came out and I applied but some people, including someone that was married to my relative, had plans to bring in someone else from Canada. Even when I approached his wife, she said she also supported her husband and asked me to wait for another time. With prayers and determination, I gave my best during the interview and the two of us, I learnt, tied. At the end of the day, I was preferred because I studied counselling, the relevant course while the other man they wanted to bring in read psychology. It was not funny at all. The second episode was when my 23-year-old graduate son got burnt in a fire accident in our home. The fire incident happened the very night we wanted to celebrate his success when he graduated with a second class upper division.  He suffered second degree burns and he spent more than two years in the hospital before he could recover fully. Despite the travails, I was still on top of my job and it took me a long time before I informed my colleagues of my predicament. Today, he is abroad doing fine.

Because of your background as a well guided girl child, did you have challenge when you wanted to choose a partner?

One thing they taught us in all girls’ missionary school on how to select a partner was that if any man came to you, look at him very well and ask yourself a question whether you would want to have a son that would look like him. If your answer is “no”, run away from him, he is not your man. If your answer is “yes”, then say yes. That was the missionary. But in the case of my father, he did not encourage his girls to have a relationship. He didn’t want to see any boy around you at all until you got to the university. I never knew anything about relationships and so it was a great challenge for me choosing a partner. I didn’t know much about my husband. I met him through one of my lecturers who was very fond of me. I was very young and active and so a lot of people liked me. He told me that he would like me to meet someone whom he thought would be suitable for me as a husband. I had so much regard for him and I was also afraid of him because he was very tough.  He was always eager to help me until the final year of my NCE in 1974, when he said he wanted to see me and introduced my husband to me. He said he was his cousin from his hometown and I could not say “no”. My mind went back to what they taught us in school and I said I would not mind if my son looked like the gentleman. That was it. Again, my father had a law, once he saw you with a man, that must be your husband. As soon as my father saw the man, the next thing he asked was when I would be getting married. We got married the following year in 1975.

But was that the best way?

No, you know I am a counsellor. That is not the best way to choose a partner. God has blessed the marriage but then, we had our challenges. Number one, there was a wide age gap between us. For instance, my husband is not the outgoing person like myself. I like relating with people, unlike him. But thank God, we were able to overcome the challenges. Today, as a marriage counsellor, I tell people that by the time they want to get married to a person, they must try to know the person up close and know their likes and dislikes. Even when they talk about love, I ask whether they know the meaning of love. I tell them they can only know the attributes of love; love is a strong feeling, an emotion. There is also communication and a whole lot of other things to be considered.

What would you consider as something that shaped your life?

When I look back, I always give glory to God for the parents that I had, especially my father. Those who knew my father would tell you that he was a very loving and warm man. He was a disciplinarian to the core as a railway man, but he had soft spot for his children. He would do anything for his children. He put us in boarding school and he did not fail to monitor us. He would do anything anybody was doing for their children. There was a day he was going to the north by train and he saw some boarding students onboard the train. When he learnt from them that there was a break, he got off the train in the night and came straight to our school in Abeokuta to find out that we were not the only ones left in the school. In fact, there was nobody who didn’t know my father in all the schools I attended. When I wanted to have my babies, my father told my husband to always inform him so that he would be the one to be with me in the hospital during labour. After I might have been delivered, that was when my father would then call my husband. He was too caring to a fault.

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Chief Rasheed Abiodun Gbadamosi became a commissioner in Lagos State when he was 27 years old. The former minister of National Planning and chairman, Petroleum Product Pricing and Regulatory Agency shares his life experiences with ADEOLA BALOGUN in this interview

How does it feel like to be 70?

I too didn’t know it would come so soon. When I was 60 years old, I was a little bit apprehensive; I was asking myself, am I going to reach the famous three scores and ten? I said there were things I ought to do, so I started work on my autobiography mid last year hoping the launch would coincide with my 70th birthday but unfortunately, I was unable to complete it. I was in the third chapter and I could not believe the gift of memory. I thought I might finish it to coincide with the birthday but well, man proposes, God disposes. There were so many competing interests here and there. Things were happening so rapidly and they needed attention. The stress of composition of thoughts, trying to eliminate what you thought might be a little bit juvenile and what might be slightly contestable. Again, I had to be careful about sequence of events. Then I experimented with what James Joyce taught us in literature- stream of consciousness. In other words, you go on trajectory and suddenly you go back again to recall as part of growing up, you might then end up with something fairly intelligible and you may be doing a lot of rewrite.

 Now that you are 70, I want to believe that you want to slow down.

That is inevitable, first there will be physical slowdown; the muscles are not as lithe as they were. Even if you want to go on, the body will put you at check. Then, it will be necessary to observe what is going on with your peers.

How was it growing up as a child born with a silver spoon?

There is no doubt, one should be grateful that one’s life was not poverty stricken, I cannot deny that. Life was comfortable because my parents decreed so, they gave me enough to eat; they gave me good clothes; everything I needed and a sound education. Certain privileges came with being the son of whom I was; the thought of getting up early to go to school and a domestic afternoon teacher who would continue to fill your brain was an enervating schedule while  growing up. Because of the privilege of the domestic teachers, one was able to do the homework and read ahead of one’s classmates. Again where I grew up, Isale Eko, was not so much overcrowded and you could easily stay away from hooliganism and play with your own peers; I won’t want to call it class. You were taught early how to choose your company; there were certain areas you would not go ordinarily.

We learnt that you wanted to train as a doctor but your father decided you should embrace economics, even though you didn’t know its meaning then. When you look back now, how would you assess your father’s judgment?

It was not a judgment as such; I will rather see it as a recommendation because he was the one that paid the bills. Therefore, he could easily say this is what I think you should do. When I told him I wanted to be a doctor, he just laughed it off and said children of business men don’t pursue any of those science-based professions. He said there was something called economics and I said I didn’t know what it was all about. The following day in the office because I was working with him, I went and bought J. L. Hanson’s Introduction to Economics and I sat down to read beginning with laws of demand and supply and all the stuff. It was abstract to my mind compared to all the literature I had read. But gradually, I was getting used to it and that was it.

How did you become a commissioner at a tender age of 27 in Lagos, was it through politics?

You journalists might have had something to do with it. When I came back from abroad with my degree in Economics and a postgraduate degree in Economics Development, I thought I had learnt a thing or two. So I started writing in the newspapers. I made my voice heard, especially writing and analysing annual budgets. Whenever there was any debate on the economy, I would be there. So, I must have come to the notice of the powers that be. So Brigadier Mobolaji Johnson said he wanted to expand his cabinet and he just summoned me one day and said he learnt I was working with my father. He said he wanted to expand his cabinet and asked if I would like to join him. I had no insight into such an office but I said I would join him. He said, ‘Don’t you tell anyone because I may still change my mind until you just hear it on radio and television. If I change my mind, you will be the one that expose yourself to ridicule.’ So as a young man who was adventurous, that was how it happened. Fortuitously, my father had a car accident at that time, he had broken his femur and he was in the hospital in Oxford, England. He might have been an obstacle because he had looked forward to me taking over from him; then I was second-in-command to him in Ikorodu Trading Company, but I had to quit. He was not even here to decide for me. Again, joining the government was a kind of natural progression for me.

How busy or tasking was it like then as a commissioner in Lagos?

I was working at odd hours. Any project that had to do with capital expenditure had to pass through my desk. I had to vet and approve and do a lot of stuff and it was great fun anyway.

After your tenure, were you not tempted to go into politics?

It had nothing to do with politics; my job was fully technical. As far as I was concerned, there was no impulse for me to do that.

Did you eventually become the successor your dad wanted you to be?

No, once I went into Lagos State executive council, he couldn’t achieve that with me. He still came back and resumed his office as managing director of Ikorodu Trading Company.

You’re an art collector, is it a part of yourself you could not just forget having gone ahead to study Economics?

I started art collection as a kind of a hobby and it is something that I enjoy; something I have passion for and it is fun and I haven’t really left the zone.

What are the secrets of being a successful businessman?

Economics is a social science where you have to apply your knowledge of managing humans and resources. Nothing untoward about it; there are rules which you apply to every situation.

At a time, you wanted to become governor of Lagos State.

That was way down the line; it was when some friends of mine from Lagos State felt that I should come out. That was the time of the two-party structure when Sarumi and Agbalajobi were on the political stage. Then I was part of an association called Hope and we were all meeting to discuss. My friends said I should step forward and we were having some nocturnal meetings and discussions but somehow, the story leaked to my father that I wanted to contest as Lagos governor. Then, he had moved to Ode-Remo to be close to my grandmother because according to him, Ikorodu was becoming too industrialised for him. He said his mother had pledged when she was leaving Ode Remo to marry into an Ikorodu family that some day she would be back in Ode Remo to spend the rest of her life. When he got information about my political move, he called me and said I must write a disclaimer and that he would take the letter and go round the media houses to say his son was not interested in any governorship position. That was how I was stopped in my track.

A father would want his son to become governor; didn’t you ask him why he stopped you?

He told me. He said one, you don’t have the temperament; you are my son, I know you. He said he had been in politics all his life and he was sure of what he was telling me. He said he didn’t see me going far because of my temperament. He said I was not cut out for politics.

Did you find it difficult to let go?

I had always surrendered to my father’s superior judgment. He was the one that said I should read economics; it was his idea and he hadn’t been proved wrong. He was my greatest inspiration; he trained me and sent me to England for a sound education and after a bit of argument, I went to America for my Master’s degree.

You didn’t feel you were more educated than him even though he was your father?

My father taught me how to write business letter; that you would not have read in any text book. The logic of presentation, bargaining, arguing for concession, he had all that and I gave it to him.

What was your experience as chairman of PPPRA?

It was just a technical job, nothing to it. My knowledge of economics and resource allocation was handy; it was no rocket science. I knew we were dissipating the resources of this country and we needed to rein in the excesses.

A lot of criticisms followed your argument that Nigerian oil was the cheapest; why did you make that statement?

If I can use the young people’s language, it is not cool dissipating our resources. There are alternative uses of your earnings inclusive of investing in the oil sector in order to develop other spheres. You could decide to be more frugal about resources; how about petro chemicals? There are a myriad of possibilities of utilising the oil resources. Why import petroleum products when you could build your refineries? Why go on bringing in products which on calculation could be as many as 80 products in a barrel of oil, giving all kinds of employment to young people? You cannot just use the resources carelessly. In an economy, there are close to 80 products you can derive from oil and some people believe that you limit yourself to five or six. There is a multiplier effect of earnings on expenditure. You invest and you trigger off a chain of investment which will have a repercussion effect down the line. But if you narrow yourself to just one area, you cannot be multiplying job creation possibilities. As you sit with me in the car now, just look around and see a lot of products you can derive from petroleum; the upholstery, the leather, the glass, the rubber, even the car itself, the engine that is burning the fuel; all these are related to petroleum. I don’t know why some feel it is wise to control pricing. To me, it is foolishness subsidising petrol.

But do you blame Nigerians who kicked against removing the subsidy because that is the only thing they believe they enjoy from their government?

That is foolishness; it is funny to believe that there is only one dimension to wealth creation. In fact, removing it will have a lot of us being employed; paying taxes and making revenue available to government to do a few things like building public houses. I would rather subsidise consumption; it is foolishness. If we have an educated populace, the nation will be better off and to say that we should just thrive on cheap fuel does not make sense. It is a matter of value and it is funny when people take a short term alternative rather than a long term option to have enough funds to build long term investment.

But why is it difficult for government to either refurbish the refineries or build new ones? Is it that we don’t have the resources?

These things are extraordinarily expensive. For any investment, there is competition for resources. If you take all your money and put it into just one scheme, the other schemes will suffer; there won’t be even development.

If the refineries are working, we would not have to import fuel.

There is hardly any country that is totally self-sufficient in petroleum resources because that is the nature of the chemistry of it. By the time you get sophisticated, you have superior advantage in several petrochemical products, making gas, making fertiliser and so on.

What is the way out?

The way out is to listen to those who are endowed with the knowledge; to prioritise. Let the market take charge.

Even the little gain in SURE-P, do you think it is being utilised well?

SURE-P is just a mechanistic way of transferring money; playing around with figures. It doesn’t make the totality of our wealth generation. SURE-P is just to say we are shocked by this suddenness of the withdrawal of petroleum subsidy, it doesn’t add on to the economic well-being of the population. It’s just to give a soothing balm, not the fundamental acceptance of the structural adjustment.

But do you see any government surviving removing subsidy completely?

I am not a politician. To me, long term management of the economy has inherent wisdom but for us to live from hand to mouth, long term gain or short term gain may not be sustainable.

So what do you think government can do to get the correct pricing?

Let the market take charge; allow the market to decide.

When you were appointed a minister, what was the experience like?

It was just a call to service, nothing more. It was just to be there and use the resources of the nation to develop it. It was more of a national call to duty.

Let me take you back a bit, as a school boy, what pranks did you play?

Go and ask Segun Osoba, he was my classmate. He taught me some pranks. Then, Lagos was becoming expanded and civilised; we were the successor generation to the British and we were imbibing the cultural change and at the same time absolving the imperatives of modernisation.

Why did you decide to marry just one wife?

My religion permits me to marry more than one but I decided to have one.

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Professor Ayodele Falase is the former vice chancellor, University of Ibadan. The foremost cardiologist who recently turned 70 in this interview with ADEOLA BALOGUN shares his life experiences

Even though you have formally left office as vice-chancellor, have you retired in the real sense of it?

Not in the real sense of it. You know I am an academic; I rose from being a lecturer to become a professor. I was also an administrator when I was in the university; I rose from being a head of department to a sub dean, dean, provost of the college of medicine and then the vice-chancellor. I have retired from all those ones but I have not retired from being a professor because I still do academic works like research, even teaching because many of my younger doctors still come to me and I guide them. That is what is called mentoring. For an academic, that is your real forte. The third aspect is clinical as you can see, I still see patients as a cardiologist. So if you say I have retired, yes, as an administrator. That is the only aspect but as for academics, I am still active. I have just completed the review of a book, A Compendium of Clinical Medicine, which we wrote as the standard text book for all the doctors trained in this part of the world.

How busy is a cardiologist here in Nigeria?

We are busy. The commonest problem of Nigerians in terms of heart disease is hypertension. We have evidence that the prevalence of hypertension has increased more than 100 per cent compared with the situation about 30, 40 years ago. The prevalence has increased phenomenally and it is causing a lot of heart problems in addition to things like strokes, kidney failure and so on. There were some heart diseases common 30 years ago which have almost disappeared as a result of an improved standard of living among Nigerians. But there is another heart disease that has started rearing its head here. They are prevalent in Europe, America, India and the Middle East. These are known as heart attacks. These are caused by blockage of pipes which carry blood to the heart. You might say it is an irony. The heart itself is a pump but it uses some of the blood for itself and if that pipe is blocked, the area that it supplies dies off and that is what is called heart attack. It is very common in Europe and America; in fact, it is the commonest cause of sudden death. It is now coming up in Nigeria where you hear of people slumping suddenly and dying. If you look at the factors, we are replacing heart disease of poverty of those days with heart disease of affluence.  And that heart attack of affluence is being led by hypertension.

How?

In those days, we were eating our normal foods like eba, pounded yam, rice, pap and things like that. Those ones don’t contain fats. But now, the diets have changed; people now eat eggs, butter, margarine, cheese and full cream milk. Those days, Yoruba referred to anybody drinking milk as a baby. We never had something called cancer of the colon, it was very rare. But we now have it with us; people are able to afford eggs, full cream milk and butter and so on and they don’t exercise anymore. People are getting fatter; the cholesterol level is increasing and we now get what is called cholesterol trouble where arteries are blocked and people are slumping and dying suddenly. That is the area we are getting into; we are jettisoning our native food and embracing the foreign diet.

But some people believe that hypertension is caused by excessive intake of salt.

This is where academics come in. It has been the belief of many that it is caused by salt but some of us have not agreed with that. In the normal instance, if we eat salt (because every organ of the body needs salt), it is regulated by some hormones and the kidneys. If there is a problem with the hormones and the excess salt cannot be excreted, that will cause high blood pressure but that is very rare. If you now say adding salt to food is causing high blood pressure, I will qualify that by saying unless your kidneys are bad but it is a rare thing for that to happen. Some of us started looking for other causes and what research has discovered among Nigerians is that in those who are hypertensive, one of the stress hormones is being produced in excess. These are hormones that react to stress. What we are conjecturing is that if this stress hormone is being produced regularly everyday, you get into a chronic stage which will then develop into hypertension. We also have evidence of it from ordinary way of life. For instance, somebody was working in a bank. He was given a target and was running around the whole place to keep his job. He would not close on time, he lived in Lagos and his blood pressure was up and we found it difficult to control. Then one day, his blood pressure went down and we asked him what happened and he said he had left that job. You cannot say that is salt. As far as we are concerned, hypertension is being induced by the stress of modern day living.

Why did you choose cardiology when you could go for another aspect of medicine?

When I finished, I went to Britain for my post-graduate studies. In those days, we didn’t have any medical post graduate school in Nigeria and we all had to go to Britain to train as physicians. In Britain then, they regarded us as being primitive, coming from African medical schools and as far as they were concerned, we were not well trained. But when I got there, I blended with the medical practice and obtained my postgraduate at the first shot at it which shocked them. It looked strange to them that a young man coming from Africa could achieve the feat on record time. It was good for the University of Ibadan, Nigeria, Africa and black people at that time. They didn’t know then that there were very brilliant people from Africa. To be appointed a lecturer at the University of Ibadan at that time, you needed a specialty area and I went for cardiology.

Did you choose it because heart disease was prevalent then?

It was an exciting area of medicine for me. It is an area that demands calmness in the face of crisis and it is also an area where you can see the result. Most of us work in what is called coronary care unit. Don’t forget that heart attack is also known as coronary heart disease; the artery that carries blood to the heart is known as coronary artery and it is when it is blocked that you have coronary heart disease. Lay people call it heart attack. When somebody’s heart stops, it is your job as a cardiologist to restart the heart and it takes a lot of expertise to do that. I thought it was exciting in those days and that was why I chose it.

So it is possible to help somebody who suffers cardiac arrest?

Oh yes; in fact in Britain in those days, if you collapsed in the street, within a minute, there would be an ambulance that would pick you up. An ambulance in Britain or America is a mobile hospital. They would start treatment immediately; they would stabilise you while you are on the ground and then put you in the ambulance and then connect you with the gadgets, they would be treating you and at the same time relaying message to the hospital where you were being taken to. Those in the hospital knew what was happening and they might even advise. By the time the patient gets there, they take over. It was exciting in Britain in those days but we don’t have such things in Nigeria. We don’t even have ambulance service in Nigeria. An ambulance service should be organised by the local government but we don’t have it. And we need it urgently now for two reasons; we are having many people slumping nowadays and there is no way they can survive in Nigeria and if they survive, they will survive without any interference because the way we treat people who slump or who have an accident is horrendous. Some people just double them up and carry them and dump them in a taxi and rush them to hospital and by the time they get to the hospital, they are gone. We need a properly organised ambulance service for us to survive in Nigeria. You know some prominent people slumped of late and they died. They needed not to have died if we had well equipped ambulance service and hospitals. But in Britain or America, immediately you slump, people dial 911 and in a minute, the ambulance is there. In fact, if you don’t call 911, you can be sanctioned. You heard about a certain nurse who was a Nigerian and she had an emergency case on her hand and instead of doing the needful, she started praying and she was sanctioned.

Why didn’t you stay back after your training?

By that time, I was offered a job but I elected to come back. You see, one makes more impact when you are within your people and you let the world know about the disease condition of your people rather than being in an environment which is saturated. And all what you are doing is competition. Secondly, I prefer staying in Nigeria because of the environment; the only problem is mismanagement not natural disasters that are common over there.

How was Igbobi College when you were there?

Igbobi College was one of the topmost schools at that time but it has gone down after government took it over. For a young boy who was resident in a small town of Ikenne and a son of a priest, getting to such an expensive school at that time was the grace of God. For someone resident in a village to mix up with those who lived in a place like Lagos and blend was no mean feat. I first attended Remo Secondary School before my father utilised the offer by the church for his son to be admitted at Igbobi at a discount. For me to be there was God because if I had competed, I probably would not have been able to make it. I didn’t even know that such a school existed in the first place. Attending Igbobi helped and shaped my life because when I got to the school, I saw that everything was focussed on academics and morals. That is why their motto is ‘Every Igbobian is a gentleman’ and it is true. The way we were brought up, you can’t but leave the place being a gentleman. Take Bolaji Akinyemi for instance, you could see that his behaviour is different. He was my senior and that is how we were all brought up. Academics was emphasised, relaxation was emphasised, good behaviour was emphasised.

At Igbobi, was it just books, books, books for you?

Well, in fact you needed to look at how the whole place was configured. You had your classes and immediately in the afternoon, they allowed you to go and rest. We had what is called siesta and everyone cooled down. We had what is called prep for about an hour or so after which you were told to go to the field to play. You were on the field for different kinds of sports for about three hours or so. If you were caught reading then, it was a punishable offence. In the evening, there would be another prep and they allowed you to go to bed at about 8pm or so. It wasn’t stressful; they allowed you to have recreation. Things like being honest, being punctual and truthful were drummed into our ears throughout. So all these stay with you coming out of such school. Let me tell you a story, I was walking with some of my colleagues one day and they started crossing the lawn, I couldn’t do that.  I went round until I found a place to pass because one of the things they taught you at Igbobi is that you don’t cross the lawn or see a litter on the ground and not pick it. All these were ingrained in us and they are still with us till now.

How was UI when you were admitted?

Let me situate it this way; I first of all wanted to go to Britain because most people were going but I knew there was no way my father could raise the money. So I took entrance examination to two medical schools, University of Lagos and UI. Unilag medical school was just coming up at that time and we were to be the second set. So, they offered you scholarship if you were taken and when I finished  my HSC, I was taken by both schools. As young people, we decided to go and look at what the place looked like to be able to decide which place to choose. Unilag was good, well laid out area, we then travelled to Ibadan and immediately we entered UI, you would not believe it, all of us said no, this is the place. It was beautifully laid out, peaceful and serene; a proper academic environment. So you could see what UI was at that time and it is a pity we allowed it to degenerate.

What would you say you enjoyed at that time?

Well, we paid for our tuition, feeding and hostel accommodation. Everything was embodied in our fee but fortunately for me, I had a Federal Government scholarship based on my performance at the HSC level. In fact, I think I was number two in the entire federation when they computed my result. So, I was a Federal Government scholar. Then, they would send the money directly to the bursary and by the time they removed the fee, you were given the balance and that was how I went through UI but it was an excellent university. At that time medical students hardly had time for any other thing although I was a member of the school relay team that won laurels for the university.  But one could not do too much of sports because of the rigours of academic works and that really helped us and that is why those of us who went for post-graduate studies abroad excelled. And that is why when we finished, most of us came back.

When you finished your studies, why didn’t you think of setting up a hospital?

That was an option; for one to really make money to be rich but one would have been academically dead if I did rather than go to area where you can do research and teach and rise to the top of your profession. So, I chose the latter and I have never regretted anything.

Was it a dream for you to be a VC of a university?

Well, if you become a professor within the university, everybody dreams of becoming VC but as you know, there is only one VC for five years and you have to weigh your chances. It takes the grace of God to get there because there are so many professors who are even better than you that didn’t get to that pinnacle of administration. Again, I thank God for making me the leader of the university and helping me to make a difference.

Having the opportunity of becoming the VC of UI where you trained, what was on your mind to do as VC?

You had nothing more on your mind other than to go in there and restore the lost glory, nothing more. You may think that the university was not like this when you were there, but whatever becomes of the university impacts on your certificate. If you carry your certificate to Britain now, they will judge you by what obtains at your alma mater at present; it is normal. So, my aim was to restore the university to what it was and I thank God I succeeded in doing that and I equally thank God that the person who came after me, Prof. Bamiro pushed the whole thing forward and today we now have a university we are all proud of.

But those who were there before you were professors too.

Of course they tried their best but don’t forget that they were working under military regime; I was lucky that I worked under a civilian regime and there are differences between them. There are certain things you can push under a civilian government but cannot do under the military. I couldn’t blame them because an academic community is a complex mix where one needs grace of God and goodwill to succeed. There are so many groups such as students, academic, non academic, technical and so on and one has to work and balance all areas because any of the groups can bring the entire system to a halt anytime.

Is it not possible to run a federal university like UI and charge fees to run it successfully?

Let me put it this way, the country itself has to decide what model to use in running its universities; there is no free lunch anywhere. If anybody comes in and says everything is free, somebody is paying for it. Or if somebody says everybody must pay, yes, those he is talking to are paying. It’s no use saying oh, it is free, it is not. Somebody is paying. Let us now look at the problems. There are two extreme models in the world. In America, you pay your fees in full and if you don’t pay, you can’t have your education. In Europe and Britain, there is partial free education where they give grants to their citizens to study in the university and the other model is where everything is free which is common in third world. Nigeria has to sit down and decide what it wants. In those days when we were there, we paid our fees and for everybody to be able to pay, we were given scholarships of many forms. What we have now is that there is no system at all. Government says don’t charge tuition which is what is used to run the various departments and if you put a stop to that, there is problem and that is why we now have dilapidated structures all over the place. And we warned government that that was not a good idea. But if you compare the universities in Europe and America with the ones here, there is a difference. Universities over there and even in South Africa are autonomous where they have freedom to set salaries, to bring in anybody they want and to charge fees. It is the business of governments to send their citizens to go and study in such universities by way of sponsorship. And some of us have said that government should allow each university to be autonomous while it can set aside a lump sum and use the proceeds to offer its citizens scholarships. Then, you have excellent universities and people will be assisted to go to universities. But our universities are riddled with strikes. To me, Nigerian university system suffers strike for six months because the universities are not being run by the governing councils. Governing councils are the most crucial in running any university because all members of staff are employed by the council. But nowadays, governing councils are populated by those who have no business being appointed at all. They are those who got compensated for maybe the money they spent in the process of electing those in power; you cannot run a university successfully like that. But if you set up a governing council with professionals, you get a quality university. That is one problem with us.

So the various governing councils are just there.

Of course, yes. They cannot set salaries and if a governing council cannot set my salary, what is the use of that governing council to me? Rightly, the unions just ignore the councils and the management and face government. If you go to government, it tells you it has no money but if you paralyse the system, then you get the attention of government. That is what is happening right now. And some of us are saying that it is unsustainable. If you want a permanent solution, the university system must be autonomous; the governing council must be professional and run the university professionally and the external members of the council must be in the majority. Presently, internal members of the governing councils are in the majority and these are the anomalies of the time and some of us are saying that you must correct this and leave the university alone so that they can run excellently and people can come and train in such university. But then, government should assist those coming because most people are poor. As a VC of a university in Nigeria I don’t have to spend the university allocation on water, electricity supply and if I cannot do all those things, I get riots on my hand and the whole place is turned upside down. But in Europe and America, infrastructure is taken for granted. Most of the money paid to the universities, supplying water and electricity. If all these are taken care of by government, the amount of fees charged will be minimal and we are capable of doing all these. That is why we are advocating that government should not start a university where there is no infrastructure. When quality people were in governing councils of universities, we had excellent universities. There is peace now, at least money has been thrown at people but in a year or two, the same problem will come back.

During your tenure, did you have any serious crisis on your hand?

Yes we had but 97 per cent of it was caused by government. Most of the problems we had was due to government/union battles. But we had other battles; we reformed the university and when you reform, certain vested interests are bound to resist change. When I got there, I didn’t want anything that had to do with the students union but we were sucked into it and it was difficult to get out of it. But we are grateful we were able to handle it without any bloodshed. It is a cycle; you are asking for salary increase, you cannot talk to your employer (the council) because it doesn’t have the power. If you talk to government that has the power, it doesn’t want to listen to you, you paralyse the system for it to listen to you. That is why we are advocating that universities should not be established without adequate infrastructure in place and without arrangement being made to pay lecturers adequately. Once you do those two, you only need a smaller amount to run the school. If the National Assembly can help us to enact a law that any university without adequate provision for the two should be closed down, you will see changes. If all universities are autonomous and allowed to compete, many universities would excel.

Can a university like UI be autonomous by charging minimal fees?

There are other things universities do to raise money; take for example distance learning. There is a problem of access in the sense that the existing universities cannot accommodate all those who are qualified. Many prominent people in Nigeria studied through correspondence. That is just one aspect. Research grants are there and other ways of raising money to make the university run effectively.

When you wanted to get married, were you looking for an academic?

No, my wife was not an academic when we married; she was an NCE graduate. She later on attended university and obtained a first class in guidance and counselling. She did her Master’s degree and her PhD. Even though she was a school principal, she later lectured in the university before she retired.

Do you have any of your children who is a doctor?

My children didn’t choose medicine; maybe they want more money.

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Three-time Chief Press Secretary to the Oyo State Government, Lekan Alabi, told OLUFEMI ATOYEBI that he missed admission to the University of Ife, now Obafemi Awolowo University because he was distracted by social life in a village where he worked as a teacher

Your family is prominent in the history of Ibadan land, what do you draw from that?

History told me that my great-great-grand father was one of the founders of Ibadan land. He was Suberu Ajemgbe, a great warrior and signatory to all the reached agreements between Ibadan and the colonialists. He was the Ekerin Balogun of Ibadan land during the reign of Baale Fijabi 1 between 1890 and 1893. Today, I am the Aare Alaasa Olubadan of Ibadan land. I am king-in-waiting and fighter for social justice.

So where exactly were you born?

I was born on October 27, 1950 in Ibadan to the late Abdulraheem Alabi alias Right Time. My mother is still alive. I attended Seventh Day Adventist Primary School, Oke-Foko Ibadan between 1958 and 1963 and African Church Grammar School, Apata, Ibadan between 1964 and 1969. I later became a village school teacher at St. John’s Primary School, Akinajo, near Arulogun, Akinyele council area in Ibadan.

Why did you choose to become a teacher instead of furthering your education?

After my final secondary school examination, I needed to do something to keep me busy because the result would not be out immediately. Someone then advised me to consider a teaching job in order to remain in educational circle. So I took up a teaching job at a village near Ibadan. But I paid for the choice later.

How did you pay for it?

I was going home every Friday but one day, a prominent person in the area, Atokowagbowonle, who was well revered in Arulogun, called me and asked me the reason for my frequent visit to Ibadan. I told him that I was visiting home. He then convinced me that there was social life in the village if I would not mind. The following weekend, he invited me as a guest to a ceremony in the village and I was spoilt with bush meat and other food. And because of that, I made it a habit to visit the new found haven every other weekend. Meanwhile, I was preparing to read English Language at the University of Ife, now Obafemi Awolowo University and I had written the preliminary examination. When the letter got to our house in Ibadan, I was at Akinajo village with Atokowagbowonle, drinking beer that weekend. When I later went home, I received the admission letter and quickly opened the letter, I ran to Ife and the man in charge of registration was mad at me because I came first in the examination. He tried to enrol me but it was too late because registration of new students had closed, that was a time when there was standard in the country; you could not cut corners in Nigeria. Immediately after that, I left the village and returned to Ibadan where I worked at Onibon Oje Publishers as the first editorial assistant of the company in 1972.

How long did you work there and what impact did it have on your early life?

I did not stay long because there were other opportunities. But working there kept me in a line I had always dreamt of. In 1973, I moved to the former Sketch Publishing Company, Ibadan, as a reporter, writer and reader on Yoruba desk. I was the first and only dual columnist of the newspaper and I wrote under the pen name of Omo Abikan in the Yoruba version of Sketch called Gboungboun. Between 1974 and 1976, I was the entertainment editor of the newspaper before I travelled abroad for my professional training in London. I returned in 1978 and joined Sketch again but later left to join the then Nigerian Television (now NTA) in Ibadan.

Was it difficult to cross from print journalism to electronic media?

It was easy for me because in the UK, I was trained as a complete journalist with knowledge of all the branches of the profession. I was at NTV until 1982 when I joined the then Television Service of Oyo State (now BCOS) as one of the pioneer staff. I was the first reporter to appear on that channel. The incumbent chief executive officer of the station, Yanju Adegbite, was the first personality to appear on the channel.

Did your move to TSOS pave the way for your emergence as the Chief Press Secretary to the Oyo State governor a year later?

It is difficult to establish a link although my performance could have been a factor. But before then, I had established a name as a journalist.

When in February 1983, the late Bola Ige, who was the then civilian governor of the old Oyo State, appointed me as press secretary, I felt honoured. I also served three other military governors, Oladayo Popoola, Adetunji Olurin and the late Sasaeniyan Oresanya in the same capacity. I left the position in 1989 to join Odu’a Investment Company Limited as the first public affairs officer of the conglomerate from where I retired voluntarily as the company’s first general manager, corporate affairs in 2006.

What happened between the time Ige lost power to Omololu Olunloyo as Oyo State governor in October 1983 and the time you returned to work with the military government?

I was simply jobless. Olunloyo is my uncle. When he became governor as a candidate of the National Party of Nigeria, I did not work with him. His government, which lasted three months, sacked, transferred and retired many people they thought were sympathisers of the Unity Party of Nigeria, which produced Ige. The government re-absorbed those who begged but I did not beg to be taken back, so I was jobless until the military government of Popoola came and recalled me to my position in February 1984. He is from Ogbomoso but I am from Ibadan.

Which of the governors did you enjoy working with most?

Ige took me as his brother. In 1992, he nominated me as a commissioner under the late Kolapo Isola but I was not considered because I was not a card-carrying member of Alliance for Democracy. When I got the Odu’a appointment, he expected me to quit after five years and join politics. During the Gen. Abdusalami Abubakar transition period in 1999, Ige called me and my wife to his house in Bodija, Ibadan and said that he had nominated me to contest for a seat in the House of Representatives. I did not think the military would go, so I did not take the offer seriously. In 2000, he called me again and said I should be prepared to go into politics in 2003. I told him I was ready but in 2002, he was murdered. That ended my political interest. I did not make any attempt again because of the decadence, violence and money bag politics we play in Nigeria.  I wrote in one of my books that my ambition was to be a Premier of the Western Region but I cannot stand the violence.

Did serving the three governors make you rich?

The opportunity to serve did not make me a wealthy man but I am contented. I live a decent and happy life full of emulation. I have a house and I have educated my children. I have served humanity in my own way and I have been appreciated. When I submitted my letter to go on retirement from Odu’a, the management did not open the letter because they thought they could convince me to withdraw it. But I had made up my mind.

How would you compare governors in your time with the ones we have now?

Governors at the time had only one personal assistant, one secret agent, one press secretary and one ADC. Today, it is not so because there are multitudes of people working with governors. It makes governance very costly and crowdy. We were barred from taking contract or benefitting directly from any project. I am not sure it is the same today.

Didn’t life become boring after retiring early?

I planned my retirement many years before I made the decision to quit work, so I have not been sitting down since because I am involved in many activities. I am an author with 15 titles to my name. I am now a motivational speaker, a producer, public relations consultant, first-class chief in Ibadan land, and like I said earlier, Olubadan-in-waiting. I am also a trustee of the foundations named after Adegoke Adelabu, D.O. Fagunwa and Duro Ladipo. I am also a trustee of the Nigerian Society of Information and Culture, which is the authority controlling the former British Library in Ibadan. I also belong to several socio-cultural groups; among them is the Omo Ajorosun, which is a foremost Ibadan social group. I hold a honourary degree of doctor of letters given to me by Achievers University on December 11, 2013. As I wrote in one of my articles published in The Punch Newspaper, it is a privilege to be a journalist because you must be master of all. Journalism makes life lively so I profited from that quality. I am busy in my own way without having to look for favour from government or individual and I pray to God that I will never seek it. My child who read sociology wanted to study law like others but he did not make the cut-off mark and I told him to find an alternative course because I would not go and beg any lecturer to bend the rule for him. All I need is money to feed myself, help people where I can, come in and live peacefully. I never solicited for what I became in life just like I did not influence the choice of elders who put me in the Olubadan’s royal line.

What was the relationship you had with Adelabu, Fagunwa and Ladipo who are all dead?

I was invited by the founders of the foundations to be a member of the boards of trustees. In actual fact, Adelabu, Fagunwa and Ladipo are people I consider as great Nigerian heroes. They were my dream heroes as a teenager. My paternal grand-mother, Asimowu Odunola, was the women leader of the then NCNC where Adelabu was a leader. He frequented our house at Ile Ekerin, Ajemgbe. I was a child then but I knew him very well. In 1957, he came to our house with NCNC party executives and gave me a shilling because I was able to make the radiogram work after everyone had failed to play it. He told my grandmother that she should make sure I attended Government College, Ibadan, where his record of academic excellence is still unbeatable. He was an academic genius in those days. As for Fagunwa, we all read his books in school and I am happy to work with Prof. Wole Soyinka, Prof. Akinwumi Isola, Fagunwa’s children, Olu Falomo and Adebayo Faleti who are also members of the board of trustees. I met Ladipo as a youth watching his plays. He still holds a place of pride in the Nigerian entertainment industry. His wife, Abiodun, is someone I call regularly and I am also close to his son, Yomi, who is also into theatre profession. I am also a member of Yusuf Olatunji Foundation. The late musician played at my naming ceremony on November 3, 1950, while the late Lekan Salami was the master of the ceremony.

How did you know this?

History is a collection of truism, facts and happenings, not fiction or fabrication. I got this through my family history record. Salami also defied a medical doctor’s order to attend the naming ceremony of my son. The picture was published in one of my books.

Why didn’t you attend GCI as Adelabu wished?

I obtained the GCI common entrance examination form in 1963 but when officers from the Ministry of Education came to prepare the primary six pupils for the primary school leaving examination, they said 28 pupils were too small to sit for the exam in a school. So they took us to other schools. I was taken to Ansar Ud Deen Primary School, Oke Foko. In the confusion, our headmistress, the late Mrs E. Ola, forgot to submit the GCI forms that I obtained. When the centres for the examination were announced on radio, my parents took me back to Seventh Day school and the headmistress told us that she did not submit our forms. My grandmother promptly forgave her even though she offered to pay back the fee. The headmistress then told us that there was a new school called African Church Grammar School beside GCI. She bought the form from her own purse and that was why I ended up going to ACGS instead of GCI. But I thank God because what else would I have wished for if I had gone to GCI? But many years later, the link with GCI was established because my first child, Olayemi, attended GCI from 1991 to 1996. Even though I do not belong to GCI Old Boys, I was a member of the higher echelon which is the Parents’ Teachers’ Association.

At 17, you wrote a letter to challenge the then Head of State, Gen. Yakubu Gowon. What gave you the courage?

The letter was written in 1967 when Soyinka was put into prison by Gowon for visiting Emeka Odumegwu-Ojukwu, I wrote three letters to him and copied the editor of Daily Times, questioning the action. I also wrote a solidarity letter to Soyinka in Kaduna prison which was given to him on his release. He acknowledged the receipt of the letter, thanking me for supporting him. I did this because I believed in social justice and human rights. I am a fan of Mohammed Alli, so when the World Boxing Council stripped him of his heavy weight title and licence, I wrote a petition to the body.

What is the meaning of your traditional title?

It is one of the 22 steps to the Olubadan stool. Olubadan succession system is unique and the best in the world because it eliminates tussle for position. As the Aare Alaasa Olubadan, I am the foremost chief in the protective army of the kingdom. I am the defender of the land. My role is similar to that of my great- great grand-father in the 1890s, which was to protect the city.

When did you get married?

I got married to my wife at St. John’s Anglican Church, London on August 12, 1978 and today, God has blessed the union with two sons and a daughter. One of the children is a sociologist while others are lawyers.

How did you meet your wife?

I was a student in the UK and I lived at 82, Prince George Road, Stoke Newton, London N16. I have been sociable from my youth. I had a co-tenant from Benin who was celebrating his birthday. Someone then started pressing our door bell and I had to check who it was. I saw a lady at the door who said she wanted to see her friend, Tutu, who also lived in the house. I told her that Tutu, now late, was not in. I invited her in but she refused. When I asked for the name, she told me it was Tokunbo Wiliams, when indeed her name was Tokunbo Laditan. When I told Tutu, she told me her real name. Tutu, who was at the time relocating to Nigeria, then gave me some items to give to her. But when she came for the items, I told her she was not the one I was instructed to give them to because she was not Tokunbo Laditan. She apologised and that was how we became friends. In August 2013, we returned to the same church where we got married to celebrate our 35th wedding anniversary and the same Reverend who officiated at our wedding did the same at our anniversary just as he did when we went there for our 30th anniversary. His name is John Ranking. He is retired now but he honoured our invitation to pray for us in the church.

Why did you have to go back to London for the anniversary?

I am sentimentally attached to London. I studied, worked and married there and by the grace of God, I will return to do the same for our 40th anniversary and pray that Rev. Ranking will be there again. Each time I visit London, I go to special places that mean a lot to my stay in the UK.

With your social status, how were you able to hold on to just one wife?

My father had eight wives and the younger brother had six wives. But at a stage in life, they told me not to marry more than one wife. I wanted to marry more wives like they did. That was what kept me in check.

What kind of relationship do you have with juju musicians, Ebenezer Obey and Sunny Ade?

The former editor of Sunday Sketch, the late Bamidele Adedeji, encouraged me to write a review of prominent people after he published the one I wrote on a band called Makanjuola who played like Obey. There was rumble of noise in the newsroom because some senior journalists queried my emergence as a reviewer, being a green horn. He later gave me the duty of writing a column on the review of arts, records and places in the western states of the country. That was how my relationship started with Sunny, Eddy Okonta, Batile Alake and so on. I was the chairman at Obey’s 70th birthday and book launch. I was also the chairman of the planning committee of KSA’s 50th anniversary on stage. Till today, we are best of pals even though he is older than me.

Is it true that Sunny and Obey were sworn enemies?

It was a commercial strategy by the recording companies that produced their music because it was easy to market their works when people heard that Sunny had replied Obey in his latest album. The recording companies, Decca and African Records, did the same with other musicians like S. Saka, Ojindo, Aruna Isola and Kasumu Adio. The strategy was also used to market the late Sikiru Ayinde and Kollinton Ayinla’s works. Obey and Sunny are best of friends.

Do you have any of your children who followed your foot step?

I don’t know what happened but none of them is following my line of work. I did not force them to do so because I supported what they chose to do. In any way, I did not follow my father’s foot step. I did not marry more than a wife and chose what I wanted in life. Every parent must allow their children to choose what they want.

What is your philosophy of life?

My life philosophy is live and let’s live. I will not disrupt anybody’s life and I will not expect anyone to stand in my way. What you sow is what you will reap.

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Bisi Olatilo, a former broadcaster with the Federal Radio Corporation of Nigeria and the anchor of Bisi Olatilo Show in this interview with ’NONYE BEN-NWANKWO and TUNDE AJAJA, shares his life experiences

You speak the three major Nigerian languages fluently, how were you able to master them?

I grew up in Kano, in Sabon Gari specifically, a place thickly populated by the Igbo. I was born in Kano in 1953. The street where I grew up was called Gold Coast Road; it is called Maitama Road now.  Although it’s supposed to be in the North, it could as well have passed for an Eastern settlement because of the composition of those who lived there. So, the first language I spoke was Igbo. I was able to speak Hausa as a second language because I helped my mum in selling things seasonally – ceramic wares. Most of my friends were Igbo. Yoruba language is my mother tongue. Incidentally, I learnt to speak the language when I was forced to go to a secondary school in my father’s town, Igbajo, somewhere in Osun State. Thank God my father insisted that I should go to school in my town because that also helped me to get a little closer to my people and understand the nitty gritty of the language itself. Today, I speak impeccable Yoruba. Before I left Kano, I couldn’t speak anything but Igbo and Hausa.

Since you grew up in the North, how do you feel about the crisis there at the moment?

It is most unfortunate especially for those of us who had the rare privilege of growing up in that very special setting when you never bothered whose children you were. It didn’t matter what language you spoke, we were all seen as one. I was brought up by the Igbo and I say it proudly. It was not because my mum didn’t have all it took to bring me up but children were living as one. What is happening now is so saddening. If anybody had predicted that this would happen, I wouldn’t have believed it.

Would you remember what made your father live in the North in the first place?

I only remember that my father was a very successful tailor and my mother was engaged in buying and selling, specifically selling dresses, wares, fabrics and so on. That’s all I remember, we all grew up there. I am the last of my mother’s three children. We just discovered that the North was the place for us; that’s where we grew up.

You said you are the last of your mother’s children, was it that your father had other wives?

In those days, it was a taboo for you not to have many wives as a man. All those things were status symbol. Yes, he had about three wives and mum was one of them.

Since ‘prince’ is attached to your name, does it mean your father was a traditional ruler?

My grandfather was once a traditional ruler. The traditional ruler that reigned before the current one in my town was my uncle. He was of the same mother with my father. So, if I really want to go back, I’m sure that at one point in time, it will also get to us because it’s a rotational thing. But I don’t have that in mind. A lot of my friends and family members call me Obalola (the king that would reign tomorrow) but I will never aspire to become a king, the same way I will never touch politics.

But you are in politics; so many people believe that you support the Peoples Democratic Party…

How can you say I’m into politics? Have you ever seen me carrying any card?

But most of your shows tend to support the PDP…

 No. All I do is to help politicians to achieve their ends. I’m a broadcaster. I’m a media entrepreneur. If any of the parties brings business to me, I will wholeheartedly do it. Maybe most people see me more as a PDP person just because I do stuff for them. I go with whoever gives me work to do. Most people think the Bisi Olatilo Show is all about events.

Is it not?

It is more than that. We conceptualise public enlightenment programmes, develop image building ideas for state governments, parastatals and businessmen, that’s all we do here. When (Isa) Yuguda was still a member of the ANPP, we worked for him. We worked for (Rochas) Okorocha in APGA, we worked for Anambra State Government, which is also an APGA state. Even when the Nassarawa State was still being ruled by CPC, we worked for the state too. We are not aligned with anyone in particular. We also worked for Lagos State Government for seven years; we followed  the government everywhere during campaigns, when the state was still ACN. That was the same way we followed President Goodluck Jonathan during his campaign throughout the 36 states before he became President. We are just broadcasters doing our job; we are media entrepreneurs. The party that brings business is our friend; all of them are our friends.

So, primarily, you don’t get into politics because of your job?

Naturally, I just don’t like it. I like to be on the fringe. I prefer to help them with professional expertise and that is our core area of competence.

But have you made foes because of this job?

Interestingly, I am a very lucky person. Everyone of them just finds it exciting to work with me. I don’t see anyone of them raising any eyebrows or feeling not too satisfied. It may be because of this language power, I don’t know. I am apolitical. I cannot do politics but I will help politics and politicians to grow in my own way. This is my professional calling.

Your daughter’s wedding attracted the bigwigs in Nigeria, is it that your profession has now made you to dine with the rich and the famous?

I have nothing but thanks and gratitude to God. They overwhelmed me, I was shocked, I was dazed by the goodwill that I enjoyed. I have not believed it as I speak. I think it just has to do with the way we relate with people, our disposition towards people. I always go the extra mile. We don’t even get paid for most of the jobs we do but there is always a pay day. That is a lesson to some of us who think that everything must be money.  A lot of people would have expected me to celebrate my 60th birthday in a bigger way than I did. But because God has blessed us more than our expectations, after our daughter’s wedding, it would be overreaching my goodwill if I made another noise. I rather went to the orphanage. We didn’t even call anybody. It was just my family, children and grandchildren. That was done purposely.

Was it your life ambition to be a broadcaster?

Certainly, all the way, I had no other life ambition even from my secondary school days. Those days, we used to have one small television. I would always listen to the news at 7am, 4pm and 10pm and the words I heard would keep resonating. The voice of Ikenna Ndaguba was always reading the network news then. For football, it was Ishola Folorunso. They were the ones that were reigning then. By the time I was in school, I got fascinated and I started doing things like that. During the school assembly, my principal then, Mr. Olagunju, allowed me and gave me the latitude to gather news around our environment, prepare it and read to the assembly of not less than 1,000 people and they would all listen to me. We also had football matches and I did mock football commentaries at that young age. And so the breakthrough came. After my school, I approached the Broadcasting Corporation Voice, that’s the radio station where I started before I came over to Lagos and the coast became a lot wider.

So it naturally followed that when you had to go for a degree, you had to study Mass Communication?

Certainly, you know the way things work in Nigeria, you must have some degrees, otherwise, if I had my way, I was just enjoying myself, but it’s been a good time.

Weren’t there challenges as much as you were enjoying yourself doing something you loved?

A lot of challenges, but we never gave up. People say that broadcasting and media are all about glamour? Indeed, it is but no money. All the same, if you really work it out properly, like most of us did, you would be able to use that to pitch your way through. It’s been perseverance, dedication and the ability to break new grounds.

At what point did you consider the idea of Bisi Olatilo Show?

Bisi Olatilo Show was a child of circumstance. It started between 1999 and 2000. When I was in  Radio Nigeria, I was doing some programmes for DBN which was called Straight Talk. It was a magazine show incorporating news, sports, interviews and so on. So, when I disengaged from Radio Nigeria, I asked myself what I would do. I left when I least expected it. I was like a fish out of water. I was very much in demand as a master of ceremonies, especially for high profile events. A friend of mine suggested I go with a cameraman to events and have a five minutes slot on TV as a social diary. And that was how the concept was conceived and we started it on AIT and NTA. They permitted us to do it without paying a kobo; just to see how it would work but at a point, I started getting memos; they needed money to pay for their own services and their platforms. So, it made sense for them to demand money from us. That was how we started commercialising it.

But wasn’t the first edition a flop?

No. If it was a flop, we could have been discouraged from going ahead with it. It was because they liked it and everybody kept urging us on. So, we were able to gather enough courage to continue.

So, in all these years, you have never thought of calling it quits?

It has never crossed my mind. The question I have been asking myself all the time is when are we going to start our own television station? People have asked this same question on many platforms and they say that our programme is bigger than some television stations. If they give us the go ahead today, we have our mast at the back there and we have the manpower to start. I just hope that very soon, we will get the licence. The excitement is always there. I hope it comes.

There was a time your office was razed…

That was in July 2006.  I had gone to cover the defection of Saminu Turaki from ANPP to PDP in  Dutse, Jigawa State capital. They called me not to compere but to cover the event. Ahmadu  Ali was the chairman of the PDP then.  We went, did a very good job, finished and came back to Abuja. I wasn’t feeling sleepy when we got to Abuja, so I decided to go ‘shake it down’ because I like dancing a lot. I came back to my room around  4am, when a phone call came from Lagos and it was one of my editors, Yomi, that called.

Was he the one that broke the news to you?

Yes and he was not diplomatic about it at all. It was very heart-breaking. He said, ‘Oga, the whole place is on fire! The smoke is so terrible!’  Before I knew it, Dede Mabiaku also called. He was even worse than Yomi. In an  undiplomatic way, he said, ‘Don’t just put your heart, the whole place don finish o, but just thank God nobody died.’ You can imagine sleeping with that kind of burden overnight. You can imagine going through that kind of trauma till morning. But I had to bear the burden until I got to Lagos. When I stepped in here, I saw my wife, my children, everybody. The luck we had was that nothing happened to anybody. My son who was around brought out all the cars and they were brand new then. My Pastor came around, prayed and prophesied that under two months, we would recover and we were shocked what changes God brought about and they all happened under two months. The whole upstairs (first floor) was in rubbles, ashes and it happened during the rainy season. So, we operated here in this hall for about a whole month before we got ourselves back. But the good thing about it is that there was no week that we didn’t have the Bisi Olatilo Show, even the same week it happened. So, that was a great setback but God changed our adversity to prosperity.

What has sustained your marriage for more than 30 years?

It is going to 33 years now. Once in a while, the devil tries to play the bad one, but God has always been there for us. We started out liking each other, not because of money, I plucked her away from her parents three years before we got married. I eloped with her.

How? Why?

I was a Christian and she came from a Muslim background and we knew her parents wouldn’t support the relationship.  Eloping seemed like the only way to do it. Since she wanted it, I decided to elope with her until we decided to get married on  December 19, 1981.

Did her parents eventually forgive you?

They did. They had to. Love conquers all. There is nothing that love cannot conquer. The most important thing was that the lady herself was interested. If I had forced her, it might not come that easy. That was what drew me to her and I made up my mind that it had to be her out of all the others.

Oh, there were others?

Certainly, why wouldn’t there be others? She was 24 and I was 28 when I married her. There would always be others at that age. But we thank God, there have been all kinds of temptations which is normal, but we have been able to surmount and overcome them.

At that period you eloped, you didn’t try to encourage her to go back to her house or you still encouraged her to stay with you?

Why would I do that when they didn’t even want to see her? And there were some people in her family who didn’t think I was the right person for her. Her family was richer than mine but she was more interested in letting love prevail. That was what she wanted.

Could you please tell us why you left Radio Nigeria?

Well, I don’t know whether to say I left them or we left each other. The most important thing is that it is a thing that I always would rather not talk about. But I’m sure that all those that I had relationship with then would be happy that we have achieved success in what we are doing.

Soni Irabor must be your very good friend going by the picture of you and him on the wall.  Since he does the kind of thing you do, hasn’t there been any form of rivalry? How have you been able to sustain your friendship?

I haven’t seen any such thing in him. But I cannot say that some of my friends are not envious. I come from a background where we love without boundaries. We can almost give our eyes out to help people. But recently, something happened that made me sit back and say to myself that I will have to change my attitude to some people that come like friends whereas they are not. If you have such people as friends, you don’t need enemies. You can imagine somebody who was supposed to be a friend who came back to town having been in the UK for years. When he came back, I was one of the persons in the vanguard of trying to rehabilitate him. Despite people’s compliments about my daughter’s wedding, this man opened his mouth and said to me that my daughter’s wedding was ‘recklessly’ popular. And when I tried to get him to explain what he meant by that, he said it was ‘carelessly’ popular. And the Yoruba people say that what you have inside you before you get drunk  is what you would still say when you are drunk. Though people tried to make excuse for him, that maybe he had too many bottles, I just sat back and said there was need to be careful. That was somebody who was supposed to be a friend, so I thought what he said was an enemy statement of the highest order but I am happy that once you know your enemies, you will know how to walk around. Soni hasn’t shown me anything like that. But that’s the last thing I would ever do. You will always find me over-blowing people’s image once they are good. You can fault me on that, once you are good, I can go to any length to talk about you in a very good light.

Have you ever faltered as a master of ceremony while doing your job; have you had a bad day?

Certainly, you will have your good day and bad day, but what we try to do to avoid this is to go by the books propounded by Ikenna Ndaguba, the master compere of all times. Even if he was going on air as a master of ceremony for 30 minutes, he would have had everything well researched that even the owner of the business would have to be listening to him. He said broadcasters must conquer the environment, they must dominate the environment. How will you dominate the environment if you don’t know it? You should know a bit more than everybody and that means you must read hard. You must read up yourself, so any event you are going to anchor, you must know a lot about it and ask questions well in advance so that you don’t falter.

What has been your highest point in your profession?

The highest point that I had was when Nelson Mandela was released from prison and he came to Nigeria with his estranged wife, Winnie Mandela. Ndaguba and I were Masters of Ceremony at that very big event. It was the most well attended that I know of till date. It happened at the National Stadium. If you threw a pin, it would fall on somebody’s head, it was that populated. The stadium had never witnessed such a crowd. That was the height of my career. And incidentally, that was when I was beginning, you can imagine that. I began at that high octave, that’s about early 1990s.

These days, On Air Personalities try to speak through their noses like Americans, or foreigners, what would you make of such?

What you should do, if I were you would be to put off the television or radio. What are they trying to do? What you get from me here is what you will get when I am reading a script, I am not making up anything, and that was how we grew up. Also, someone like Ndaguba was always himself; either you were listening to him on air or anywhere else. So I think it’s a complex thing. There is no reason for them to change their accents.

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Seventy-eight-year old Chief Kessington Adebutu tells ‘Nonye Ben-Nwankwo why he is a philanthropist and about his love for women

 How do you feel at 78 or is age just a number to you?

I don’t feel any different. I am just myself. I still do what I have always been doing. I have had my ups and downs and I believe that is how it should be. It shouldn’t be rosy all the time.

People still troop to your office; it must be tiring seeing this number of people everyday. Don’t you feel like retiring?

You have not seen anything today. Try and come on a Tuesday, then you would see the number of people I must see. I enjoy what I do. I am aggressive. I have always been like this even when I was nothing.

So, there was a time you were ‘nothing?’

Of course. There was a time I was not in this position. I thank God for what I am today.

A lot of people know you as a philanthropist…

Some people work harder than I do yet they get a little fraction of what I am getting from God. I believe the only way I can show appreciation is by giving back to the society.

Was that basically why you built your foundation in your village in Iperu Remo?

It is not a village. It is a town. Anyway, I set up that foundation in 2005 at Golden Gate Hotel in Lagos. What I just did last October was to move the headquarters to my town.

Looking back, did you imagine that your life would be like this?

I never imagined it. I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth. It wasn’t as if I passed through very hard times as well. I remember when I was working, I would collect my salary and use it to pay previous debts and then I would start the next month with another debt. It just wasn’t rosy.

Where was the first place you ever worked?

I started with Cable and Wireless which later became NITEL. That was the place you would meet all the important people in the country. We were in charge of international phones. In those days, you wouldn’t find any international line in anybody’s house; everyone had to come to Cable and Wireless to make and international call.  No poor man would come there of course. I made a lot of contacts there. I met TOS Benson there and so many other prominent Nigerians and even expatriates.

Why did you leave there?

It was from the contacts that I made there that I got into salesmanship. I made so many contacts there.

You worked in a chemical company but why didn’t you think of setting up your own when you decided to be your own boss…

Yes. I worked in a pharmaceutical company that made Andrews Liver Salt and Cafenol. I was a salesman. I wasn’t happy with my job. I was well paid. When the expatriates came, I would be the one to train them. But even as I was the one training them, they were my bosses. I felt bad that the expatriates were regarded as my bosses. That was what spurred me on to be on my own. I wanted a job of my own. The money was not there. I couldn’t have gone into pharmaceutical business; it was capital intensive. I had to look for a business that required the least minimum of funds or even nothing. The only thing that came to my head was to be a pools agent.

Didn’t it require money to start?

No. All I needed was a shop, a table and a biro. That was how I started. I started at Alakara Bus Stop in Lagos. My brother was a landlord in that area, so that also helped me. I had good patronage. People knew where I lived and knew I couldn’t run away. Pool business has a lot to do with honesty and integrity.

Did you flourishing immediately you started?

I was doing very well. Within a couple of months, I opened the second branch. In less than one year, I had the third branch. I went on like that until I had so many other branches. I have not left the pool business but what I do mainly now is lotto.

Some people might look at what you do as gambling…

It is not gambling; it is gaming. If I remember Chief (Obafemi) Awolowo’s language, he said gaming is the stock exchange of the common man.

But is it wise for people to use their last kobo to play this game, when most times, they don’t even win and their money would just be gone?

Gaming has helped this country a great deal. So many people who ordinarily would go on the rampage on the streets have their tempers cooled down because of gaming. They have hope that something better would come their way. Gaming has helped a lot of people.

Why didn’t you ever go into politics?

As far as I am concerned, politics will never be for me. Why would I go into it? I am a businessman; I am not a politician. I want to do my business. I cannot afford to get into politics. Never and never! I have friends who are politicians but I am not in any camp. I have friends in all the camps.

Your closest friend was Chief Solomon Ayoku, how did you cope when he passed on?

He was my very good friend. He was younger than me. He was born in 1939, I was born in 1935. God knows the best. He was a pools agent like me. His shop was just a stone’s throw from mine. We had things in common. When I wanted to go into pools promotion, I decided that we should do it together. That was what gave birth to Face-to-Face Pools. We did quarrel at times but we always made up without a third party. We always settled our differences.

Was it because of lack of finance that made you not to go to the university?

The answer is yes and no. At a time when I was in class four in the secondary school, I wanted to go into the labour market. I didn’t even want to finish secondary school. I was too anxious. I played truancy a lot when I was in secondary school. My mother bought me a new Raleigh bicycle and persuaded me to go back to school. She begged me. I was the only student that had a bicycle in the college.

If you wanted to drop out of school then, why are you now building and donating classrooms to schools?

I believe that any soul who is healthy and educated can never go hungry. You may not eat what you like but you will definitely eat something. My foundation is principally for education and health.

Was growing up exciting?

The going was good. I was determined. My friend, Chief Molade Okoya-Thomas, would always remember that I told him when he and the others were going to England so many years ago that I would be a millionaire before they came back. And that was what happened. I was determined. I am still determined.

But going to England was the in-thing then…

I didn’t want to go. In fact, I couldn’t even afford to go even if I had wanted anyway. I didn’t have any scholarship abroad. But they came back and they met me a millionaire. I worked so hard and I am very honest. In fact, I owe my growth to hard work and honesty.  When I started, I opened 26 branches all over Nigeria. Then, workers weren’t stealing. But it got to a stage when workers didn’t just steal, they wanted to grab everything. We had to close down some branches because of that.

Has the economy affected your business?

It hasn’t been too bad. Some people have nothing but they play the game to have something or double the little they have. An average man wants to game to become affluent.

But so many people who are addicted to gaming crash and become paupers due to gaming.

I still tell you that gaming is the stock exchange of the ordinary man on the street. You can also liken it to when the stock exchange crashed. There is really no difference.

Why are you referred to as Baba Ijebu?

I didn’t give myself the name. The name has spread all over the country. I don’t even mind the name. I am an Ijebu man.

Being a millionaire would have attracted so many women to you, how did you manage?

I am not as good as you think I am. I like women and I am not hiding it.

Is that why you have three wives at the moment?

Three wives? Don’t let me tell you how many wives I have. I am not as good as you think I am. I wonder why you would think I have three wives.

Was it by choice that you had more than one wife?

I am very weak when it comes to women. If I see a woman I like, I make sure I take her as a wife. I don’t waste time at all. I don’t like to play games. If I like a woman, I talk to her and eventually, I take her as my wife. That is why I have so many wives.

Have you had reason to regret being a polygamist?

No way. I don’t regret being a polygamist at all.

But people believe that it brings friction amongst the wives and children.

It depends on the man. I am in charge. I have my children working with me in this office. They are not all from the same mother. Everybody is happy. We are peaceful. There is no problem.

At 78, your last wife gave birth to twins…

Do you really believe she is the last wife? Anyway, she is the last wife for now. Nobody knows what will happen. My father had his last wife when he was 80. She is my last wife at the moment.

But the other wives and children would have kicked against it when you were getting married to her.

They were at the wedding ceremony. If they want to be happy, they would have to support me in anything that makes me happy. That is the philosophy. If anybody around me wants to be happy, he or she must do what makes me happy, period.

 But are you not too old to get a new wife and have children?

What do you mean by being too old? If I don’t tell you my age, would you know how old I am? So, don’t even go there.

Do you have a favourite among your wives?

I don’t have any permanent favourite. The moment you are very good to me, then you are my favourite.

Would it be correct if we conclude that you like women so much?

I like the company of women. I cannot deny that.

Has any woman ever broken your heart?

Is it possible? How can a woman break my heart? No woman leaves me. I am serious. It is not possible.

Do you smoke or drink?

 I quit smoking over eight years ago. One of my junior wives made me stop smoking. I am not a fan of alcohol. I drink to the barest minimum. If you give me a bottle of beer, you want to embarrass me.

What do you still hope to achieve in the nearest future?

I want to continue helping people. I want to continue to be a philanthropist. A lot of Nigerians are suffering. So many people cannot even afford to get treated for ordinary hernia.

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Dr. Okwesilieze Nwodo, an ex-governor of Enugu State and former chairman of the Peoples Democratic Party, in this interview with Ozioma Ubabukoh, shares his life experiences

How was growing up as a child born with a silver spoon in your mouth?

Even though you may say I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth, my parents made sure I was not entirely brought up as such. For example, my siblings and I were sent to Saint Patrick’s Primary School, Iva Valley, Enugu for our primary education. This was a school populated predominantly by coal miners’ children. The attraction of the school for my parents was that the family spiritual mentor, then Rev. Father Michael Eneje, who was to become the Bishop of Enugu Diocese, but now deceased, was in charge of the school. This led to a very strict disciplinary upbringing. The privilege I enjoyed with my siblings was that we were the only children who could afford to come to school with shoes, rode to school on our bicycles alongside our teachers and occasionally driven to school by my father’s driver. More often, my mum insisted we trek to school with children of our domestic staff who went to the same school. It is noteworthy that my dad’s driver’s younger brother, Peter, was in my class. Peter retired as a permanent secretary in Enugu State. That goes to show the equal opportunities the educational facilities at that time provided for all children.

Why did you choose to study medicine?

I decided to study medicine for two reasons. Initially, while at Government College, Umuahia, my dad wanted me to study engineering. This was in spite of my childhood desire to be a priest. So I set out studying subjects that would lead me to becoming an engineer. These included technical drawing, wood work, metal work, etc. While I was on this, the civil war broke out when I was in class five. During the war, I worked in the Armed Forces Hospital where I developed interest in medicine. With the war over, my dad said to me, “Your elder brother Joe was to study medicine, but he is now reading law, there must be a doctor in this family. You have to change from engineering to medicine.” I was happy with this development because I had developed interest in medicine during the war. Two, I saw this as a welcome alternative to my original ambition. If I could not minister to a man’s soul, I could very well minister to his health. Indeed I saw my call to medicine as a vocation and loved it.

As an undergraduate, was it all about books for you?

In the medical school, the emphasis was on books and books but I found time for church organisations like Saint Jude’s Society, social organisations like Beta Sigma Fraternity and Medical Students Association. Occasional weekend parties were not left out to unwind.

Describe your days as an undergraduate compared to now.

My days as an undergraduate cannot be compared with what we have today. Granted that my university was badly damaged by the civil war, genuine efforts were made to fix the school. Our lecturers were very dedicated and we the students were anxious to catch up with the years lost due to the war. Today, we have allowed the facilities in our schools to decay, despite increased population stretching and dwindling the amenities. Our lecturers do not earn living wages and have no commitment to their work. Most of the time, they are busy looking for other ways to make ends meet. The students today are so distracted that only a few of them are conscientious with their studies. On graduation, we had house jobs waiting for all graduating students. We had furnished accommodation and car loans to become car owners two weeks after graduation. Today, a good percentage of graduating doctors are looking for house jobs three years after graduation. We need to work hard as a nation to bring back the good old days. It is good that the Federal Government and the Academic Staff Union of Universities are working together; they are on the right path. If all the funds being rolled out now are judiciously applied, some noticeable changes would be seen.

Some people would say the sight of blood killed their interest in becoming doctors, what was your experience?

I was luckier than most of my classmates as I had my baptism with blood before medical school. While working in the Armed Forces Hospital during the war, I observed my first operation in the theatre. It was an appendicitis operation. The nurses took me through the procedure to dress up for the theatre. When the doctor was fully dressed and ready to go in, I was invited to come near so as to observe and learn what was about to take place. As soon as the doctor cut the skin, blood shot out from both sides of the opened vessel. The last I saw was the doctor trying to clip the blood vessels. The room was turning round and round, then there was darkness. I might have heard someone shout that I should be grabbed as I was slumping. I was later told how I was resuscitated long after the surgery. After this experience, I was able to cope with the sight of blood. My colleagues in the medical school had two hurdles to cross; first was at the anatomy laboratory during our pre-clinical studies. The sight of the cadaver (dead body) that we had to dissect to learn the human anatomy and the actual dissection of the body was too much for some of them to take. Three students changed courses after that day. Many could not eat meat for weeks thereafter. The second was the clinical class. When we got to the clinical, a few still had their fainting attacks  first day at surgery but we didn’t lose any more students. Like most doctors, the sight of blood becomes part and parcel of the profession especially for those of us that are surgeons. If it remains a problem, there are many areas of medicine you could specialise in today and have minimal exposure to blood.

When you finished as a doctor, where did you work and how was it as a young doctor?

My first practice as a doctor was at my alma mater, the University of Nigeria Teaching Hospital, Enugu. I worked there as a house officer. It was exciting and challenging. You needed to prove to your teachers that they did not make a mistake in awarding you a degree. When you pass your final examination in medical school, you get provisionally registered as a doctor. It is after you have successfully completed your housemanship and signed off that you can be permanently registered. The greatest excitement I had was being part of a medical team that received a patient in severe pains and we succeeded after a few days to bringing smiles back to her face. This was most dramatic in paediatric surgery where we received newborns who had no chance to live unless we intervened immediately and when we succeeded, we had given that child a chance to live up to 100 years. Nothing could be more satisfying. That is why I finally specialised in paediatric surgery. Thanks to Professor Festus Nwakor who was my great mentor in this field.

As an accomplished paediatric surgeon, why did you still venture into politics?                                                                                        

I did my specialist course at Royal College of Surgeons in London, Children’s Hospital, Birmingham, England and the University of Belgrade, Yugoslavia. Thereafter, I was to go on to the Children’s Hospital in the University of California, United States of America, to do a research on solid tumours in children. Unfortunately, my dad’s health was failing him. I decided to come home and look after him. Thank God I was able to stabilise him for over six years. My elder brother, Joe, was running for the governorship of Enugu State when our father died. I decided to assist him with his campaign while applying to hospitals in the Gulf region for a place to practise paediatric surgery. In the course of very stiff primaries between my brother and Rev. Hyde Onuaguluchi, both of them were disqualified. Our campaign team insisted that I replace my brother. This is how I was drafted into politics and ran and won the governorship race in old Enugu State.

Some people may still feel that your venturing into politics was a big loss to the medical profession, do you feel this way?

Those who think so may be right. This is because I love medical practice. I had indeed set a target for myself that by the time I was 40 years, I must have made a discovery in paediatric surgery that my name would be associated with. I have since learnt that life is unpredictable. As they say, man proposes but God disposes.

What was your experience as governor of Enugu State, and what actually did you want to achieve by aspiring to be governor?

I enjoyed my tenure as governor of Enugu State. This was because I built a great vision for Enugu State. I was just about to get the vision off the ground when the late Gen. Sani Abacha came to power. My areas of interest were to create a new wealth base through agriculture; to explore the mineral deposits in the old Enugu State to generate wealth and employment; to build a road network to connect the state capital to local government areas, food producing areas and major markets; to improve the quality of education, especially in science and information communication technology; and to upgrade the quality of health care delivery. As state policy, I pursued the principles of triangular equilibrium and meritocracy. This was to put behind us the cankerworm we fought for 30 years as ‘wawa’ people against marginalisation by our more endowed neighbours.

Because of the short period in office as governor, did you achieve anything?

We achieved quite a lot. To mention a few, we electrified 70 communities and had imported transformers and other components to start electrifying 90 additional communities. We had completed 85 per cent of our water scheme with RCC in Enugu and Nsukka senatorial zones and with Emzor Sakamory in Abakaliki zone. We had cleared massive hectares  of land for our agricultural scheme and imported water pumps and other irrigation equipment for all year farming. Many tractors and farm equipment were procured to cope with our massive agric project. We gave Enugu township roads a facelift and commenced the tarring of Opi-Nsukka Road. We produced master plans for Enugu State University of Science and Technology campuses and started construction. We promoted hundreds of stagnated teachers to improve their morale and employed many more to have a better teacher-pupil ratio. We abrogated the fraudulent agreements in the vegetable oil factory at Nnachi, the Premier Cashew Industry at Oyeh and the aluminum industry at Ohebe Dim and put them into firm indigenous management. We restarted the flour mill at Emene and the first iron and steel mill in Nigeria at Emene was 90 per cent ready to bounce back. The poultry farm and feed mill in Enugu were reactivated and work started on the biggest poultry farm in Eastern Nigeria at Abakaliki. We had commenced the building of a new television transmission station in Nsukka. All these and many more were done in 20 months.

Why did you fall out with Governor Chimaroke Nnamani then?

I didn’t really have much of a problem with Governor Chimaroke Nnamani other than his style of governance. He also wanted to make some of us irrelevant in a party we formed. He was instigated into doing that by President Olusegun Obasanjo who marked some of us down for our stance against his third term bid.

Alhaji Bamanga Tukur recently succumbed to pressure to resign as chairman of the Peoples Democratic Party after a stormy tenure. How would you describe your own tenure?

When I assumed office as chairman of PDP, I found the party miles away from the vision of its founding fathers. My plan was to roll it back to that vision and prepare the party for general elections. This involved rebranding the party, and building internal democracy. I also wanted a modern party with the highest international best practices. I engaged consultants to work out e-registration of our members. Some of these innovations met with resistance from some powerful members for selfish reasons. Also, when we sought to implement the Independent National Electoral Commission’s directives on some of our state chapters, our governors ganged up against that. By and large, I was happy I conducted good primary elections to choose the party’s candidates with minimum imposition. I think the presidential primary was particularly good. I did reasonable re- branding that carried the party to electoral victory.

How did the allegation of misappropriation of funds affect you as PDP chairman?

The allegation of misappropriation of funds never affected my tenure. Before I became chairman, OBJ’s government accused me of ID Card scam. After locking me up for one month, seizing my passport for six years and prosecuting me for six years, the court struck off the matter for lack of diligent prosecution. All these were punishments for not supporting third term. It is on record that my policy as chairman brought into the coffers of PDP the largest amount of money the party ever made in its history and I handed over the largest amount of money as an outgoing chairman.

Some people even argue that you were cleared of the allegation because of your position in the ruling party, how would you react to this?

If you recall, Obasanjo and Chimaroke pushed me out of PDP. The matter was prosecuted while I was partly in ANPP and ACN. PDP had no part in the successful outcome of my matter.

Did you get married to a fellow doctor?

Yes I got married to a fellow doctor but not out of design. I had wished to marry a teacher because most of my classmates who gave me tough time in school were children of teachers. So I wanted to give my children this advantage. When I met my wife, I was so swept off my feet that I forgot my long standing wish. I, however, got her to do a specialty in a field, radiology, which would not have to take both of us out on call duties at night.

They say doctors have weakness for women, is that true in your case?

I don’t even believe that doctors have weakness for women. However, because of our training, you may say we are gentle and polished with them.

Do you still practise medicine?

Because I love medicine, I don’t miss any opportunity to go into the theatre when I can. Even when I was governor, I did.

Is any of your children a doctor?

My second daughter, even though she has a Master’s degree, will enter medical school next fall.

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Apart from being an accomplished lawyer and the first female president of the Nigeria Bar Association, Dame Priscilla Kuye is a devout Catholic and a woman of many other parts. She shares her sojourn from the cradle to 74 years old with BOSEDE OLUSOLA-OBASA

What do you recall fondly about your upbringing?

I had lovely parents. They brought us up properly. My late father, the Akija of Ikija-Ijebu in Ogun State, Oba Luke Adenola Adekogbe and mother, late Mrs. Elizabeth Adekogbe, were teachers. They studied at what was known as Yaba Higher College in those days. They taught us to be truthful, to work hard and to love God. My mother would usually tell me that hard work does not kill. It was a very happy family. My father was a disciplinarian but my mother was on the softer side. They emphasised so much on excellence such that whenever we came first in school, they would give us gifts. They always wanted us to come first in class.

How did you cope with your father and mother being teachers?

(Laughs) The basic thing was that we had to do our homework under their supervision. In the case of my siblings and I, our parents did not wait for our hands to reach our ears before we were enrolled in school. You know in those days, there was this idea that a child’s hand must be able to reach his ears for him to be certified old enough to start school, but that was not so in our own case. We started school quite early, maybe because they were teachers. I can’t remember how old I was when I started school, but I finished my secondary school at 16 or 17 years old. We lived in Ibadan where I had my primary and secondary education. My parents also ensured that their girl-children had equal access to education as the boys. That was not a common way of thinking in their days. Again, I think that was because they were teachers; it helped them to think differently. They had two girls among their children. I am a lawyer and my sister is an architect.

Your parents were teachers, who then inspired you to study law?

Actually, my initial desire was to read medicine and be a doctor, but I was not very good at science subjects, especially Chemistry. So I had to abandon it, I still have interest in medicine. When I couldn’t become a doctor, I trained as a nurse at St. Bartholomew’s Hospital, England. I was also at Gray’s Inn, London, before I finally opted out to study law at the University of London. I graduated in 1966 and was called to the Nigerian Bar in June 1967. Now, I must tell you why I opted to read law. After she clocked 50 years old, my mother disclosed her intention to read law. I was surprised and curious. I wanted to know why my mother wanted to read law at that age. That was how I decided that I would read law, if my mother could desire it at her age.

And did she accomplish her law dream?

No, she could not because she died too young to realise the dream. She would have done it because she was a very energetic woman who stood for women’s rights. She was one of the founders of the National Council of Women Society, which is so big today. She was a politician, businesswoman and teacher. She had her own NGO, Women Movement of Nigeria, which fought for women’s rights. I switched over to law because of my mother’s interest and because I later discovered that as a lawyer, no one would be able to trample on my rights and I would be in a position to help others.

Would it be right then to say that you studied law to realise your mother’s unfulfilled dream to be a lawyer?

(Laughs) Well, but in the end, I actually realised my own dream. No doubt, her ambition triggered my interest in law. I wanted to know why law caught her fancy at that age and I have enjoyed every bit of it. I also think God actually wanted me to be a lawyer because I find it very interesting.

Do you still miss medicine, your first love?

Well, I still have a soft spot for the medical profession. When people are ill, I still find myself offering useful counsel. That happens mostly in the church. The thing I have found out is that God created people with so many talents that some people never discovered all to accomplish them.

Not only did you become a lawyer, you married a lawyer. Is it true that marriage between two lawyers can be turbulent?

We discuss law, but we do not let that affect our relationship. The relationship between a husband and a wife is based on love and understanding. We quarrel but we make up. In my relationship with my husband, Chief Omowale Kuye, it has never reached that point where I am stressing the fact that I am a lawyer. He is my husband and the head of the house. I accept that because that is how God has ordained it to be. We also believe that men and women are complementary to each other. His weak point may be my strong point and vice versa. We communicate well and we listen to each other. Communication is very important in a marriage relationship. We have never had to use law to settle any matter in our home and we have been married for over 50 years. We respect each other’s views.

Like some lawyer couples, have your chambers gradually moved into your home?

Oh yes. We discuss a lot of legal issues. We review issues in the news together and see the legal implications of such, especially columns on law. When we discuss like that, we think and remain mentally alert. That is one of the ways we relax. It is very interesting. A husband and wife must always communicate; you must discuss to make your marriage work. I believe lack of communication is the reason some marriages crash. You have to talk to each other and pray for God’s blessings on your marriage.

Are your children lawyers too?

Yes, my daughter is an economist and a lawyer, just like her father. My son, Demola, is a lawyer too. So we are a family of lawyers.

Did you encourage them to study law?

We did not. In fact, my daughter first read economics abroad and one day she saw us going to the court and she said, ‘I am the only one not going to court.’ All of a sudden, she decided to read law and she did. She didn’t want to be left out. It is very interesting. It was their wish.

How was your time at the law school?

Things were better in our days. Now the sudents have accommodation problems, their fees have been increased and so on. Then we had dedicated lecturers, they still do but there is need to improve the infrastructure. I don’t support the idea of increasing the number of years students stay in the law school, the students had already been to the university. One year is enough. I also do not support the call by some people for the law school system to be abolished. It is important to get acquainted with the law in the environment where you are going to practise. I think that a good lawyer should work under an experienced lawyer in a chamber before setting up his own chambers. It will give him the required exposure. Some people set up chambers immediately and they make mistakes. I was with a senior lawyer, Burke and Co. Solicitors from 1967 to 1969 before I set up my firm, Priscilla O. Kuye and Company in 1970. Justice Oyeyipo, former chief judge of Kwara State, was in my set.

How does it feel to have a number of firsts to your name?

It is to the glory of God. If the Lord blesses your effort, you should be thankful to Him.

What were your high points as the first female president of the Nigerian Bar Association?

I served the Lagos chapter and I was sent to the national body as a member of the National Executive Committee. After that, I became the financial secretary; I became the second and first vice president. I rose through the ranks before I became the president of the NBA. It was not easy; it took a lot of hard work. I had to attend meetings, participate in committees, but what I enjoyed most was being chairman of the Human Rights Committee. My time was turbulent. That was the time of the MKO Abiola saga. The military was in power and there were lots of infringements on human rights. That was why I was not allowed to run for a second term as president of the NBA. They claimed that they wanted somebody from the North to be president. That was in 1992 when the military disrupted the NBA election because they didn’t want Kuye to be president. They almost killed me but it was God that spared my life. I did my best bearing in mind that the NBA should be the watchdog of the society. When rights were infringed, I spoke up. My international passport was seized during my tenure because they said I was talking too much. I thank God. The NBA must speak up and that was what I was doing but they said that I wanted to pull down the military. And I wondered how a small woman like myself would pull down the military. During the build-up to the NBA election, they sent soldiers to our meetings and ensured that I didn’t return as president. God was with me and nothing happened to me; I am still alive.

But the NBA has been accused recently of courting the government to the detriment of the public.

The NBA is still speaking against the ills of the society but you know we now have a democratic government in place. It is not supposed to be as terrible as the military was. The NBA president speaks up and you know the executive committee has to support what he is saying. I don’t think the NBA leadership is courting government because they are not politicians, they are professionals. But I accept that things could be better.

You also presided over your husband as a lawyer, how did he feel about it?

I have a very good husband. He is a man who believes that a woman should develop all her potential and he encourages me to achieve all I want as a human being. Some men subjugate their women and I think that is very wrong. If we want this country to develop, we have to allow men and women to contribute their quotas. In politics for instance, women should be given more space. The men folk should stop asking women to step down for the men at the constituency levels. I was privy to this happening many times and I told the women to shout. They should stop stepping down for men. Women are good leaders because they manage the home well.

What were your achievements as the first female president of the Nigerian-American Chamber of Commerce and Industry?

The chamber is doing a lot. But the issue of poor electricity condition is militating against the development of the Nigerian economy. Artisans, low income workers and even big companies would be better with improved electricity supply. What people spend on diesel is too high and that is why what we produce in Nigeria cannot compete well with imported goods. So much money is spent on infrastructure. I know that because I am a manufacturer. It is terrible and that is why the country is flooded with sub-standard goods. Electricity is important to improving the economy and that is the position of the chamber. I am of the opinion that government needs to ban the importation of generators, otherwise the efforts towards improving power supply will not yield fruits. Government has to do it in the interest of the economy. The chamber analyses the budget every year and offers expert recommendations. We have trade missions that facilitate exchange programmes with Americans to promote investment. We organise trainings and seminars. Our members contribute to the economy through their businesses, they encourage our partners to come and invest in Nigeria.

You grew up in Ibadan, can you relive your times there?

That is a very long time living with my parents. I enjoyed my schooling days in Ibadan. I had many friends in school. As girls, we didn’t play too many pranks unlike the boys. Most girls were quiet in class. I took part in sports – I played hockey. At St. Anne’s, the late Prof Jadesola Akande and Mrs. Jegede were my classmates. While there, my younger sister was at St. Teresa’s College but I was withdrawn to join my sister because as a devoted Catholic, my parents wanted Catholic education for me. That was in form three and I wrote my school certificate examination in form five. I also played net ball. My parents were from Ogun State but they lived in Ibadan. My father eventually became an Oba. Before then, he was the assistant registrar of cooperatives in Ibadan. My mother taught at St. James’ Primary School, Ibadan. I schooled there too. I attended St. Anne’s School, Ibadan and later St. Teresa’s College, Ibadan.

 Did you represent your school at competitions?

I can’t remember now, but I know that I was very athletic. I also know that I was a house prefect at St Teresa’s but if you ask me the name of the house, I can’t remember anymore. But I remember that in the school, we went for morning mass everyday. We were given a balanced training and education and emphasis was laid on being God-centred. I used to serve at mass. The reverend sisters were very strict but it turned out to our advantage. In school, you had a reverend sister attached to you.

Did you at any point in school desire to be a reverend sister?

No, I never desired to be a reverend sister. All I knew was that I must have a good relationship with God, but not to be a reverend sister.

Why?

I cannot. It never crossed my mind.

At what point did you meet your husband?

Ha, I first knew him in Ibadan and later on we met in London when he was a student there. We met at the London School of Economics. I was still at St. Bartholomew’s, trying to study medicine. That was where I noticed that I was better in my art subjects than the sciences. We met in London, he proposed there and we got married. That was over 50 years ago. My husband was a Christian before he changed to a Muslim. His late parents were Baba and Iya Ijo Salvation Army. I am a devout Catholic and I don’t know of other religion. My husband respects my religion and I respect his. I celebrate with him when it is sallah, I get caterers to cook for his visitors and he celebrates the Christian season with me too.

Are you still expecting him to return to Christianity?

Yes. I wish he was a Christian but he is a devout Muslim. Nothing is impossible for God to do.

But what made him change his line of worship?

What he told me was that his parents were too strict with them when they were younger. He said that they always wanted them to practise catechism. When he became an adult, he revolted and decided to change his religion. That is why people should learn that religion is one’s relationship with God. You don’t have to kill a person to make them follow your religion. Those killings in the north are unnecessary.

How did you cope building a successful career and raising your children?

It was very difficult. Combining raising children with a career is not easy. I was even lucky because it is a career that I could choose my time and plan my schedule. If I were working on a 9 am to 5 pm schedule, it would have been more difficult. But then, I made sure that before leaving the house, I prepared the meal for my husband and children. I made sure that their lunch was ready too. I pick them up at school. What is paramount for a female professional is that you must organise your time. You don’t have the time for all these weekend parties because you still have to spend time with your children and husband. If you are invited to three parties, you may attend only one; you need time to stay with your children so that they can be successful in life. I think parents need to create more time for their children. Some children don’t know their fathers because they are entrusted to nannies. There is need to give children quality time and watch the friends they keep.

You still look quite fashionable at over 70…

My mother was a fashionable woman in her days. She wore trousers often and rode a bicycle. She was too fashionable. I took after her. Each time I look at her picture, she looks charming. A woman should endeavour to look good. I took after my mum and my daughter has taken after me. She is very fashionable and I am very happy about it. In those days, parents were very disciplined and you didn’t see all the provocative dressing that girls do today. It is so bad they wear those things to church. I don’t like it at all, people should dress decently. Fashion is going crazy.

You look very agile too despite your age…

God has blessed me with good health. The only thing I feel sometimes is cold and when I do, it’s a signal to slow down and I do.

Do you do exercises?

Yes, I used to play golf; but stopped some years ago because my husband had an accident while playing golf that affected his back for about one and half years. It was while he was trying to get out of the bunker that his back got affected. The back is healed now but he is not expected to put pressure on his back side. Anyway he is over 80, he has played enough golf. We had our friends at the Ikoyi Club to play with. We still go there but we don’t play. What I do now is walking.

How would you like to be remembered?

I want to be remembered that I lived a good life; that I helped people when I could. My motto has always been: do unto others what you want them to do to you.

Are you a Rotarian?

Yes. I am the immediate past president of the Rotary Club of Victoria Island.

Have you authored any book as a way of giving back to the legal profession?

Now that you have raised this question, I will. Many people have been telling me to write. I have delivered so many papers and I have worked so hard on women issues. I must write a book from them. It is a project I must do. There is a man who is always reminding me to write.

If you were given the opportunity to live life over again, what would you do better?

If I should come back again, I would like to spend more time with my children. I was lucky that I had my own business so I had time for them, but I would still have loved to spend more time with my children as a mother. That is because children value it, they don’t forget. They watch you and emulate what you do.

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Chief Tola Adeniyi, the former Managing Director of Daily Times, in this interview with ADEOLA BALOGUN speaks on his life experiences as a journalist and a writer

In the real sense of it, are you still working?

Of course, I am still working. You never retire from a profession; you can retire from a post and position. If you are a chief judge, you can retire as a chief judge but you are still a lawyer. So, I am a journalist and until I die, I will practise my trade. I am working in the area of media relations. I consult and of course, I still write. I write editorials for about three or four newspapers in Nigeria. I write columns under various names.

How did you come about your pseudonym, Abba Saheed?

It was in 1973/74, that was the height of Daily Times glory when (Alhaji Babatunde) Jose recruited so many graduates into journalism. I was lucky that I got noticed; I was very critical of (General Yakubu) Gowon’s administration and I was being harassed here and there. So, Jose called me one day and said, ‘Blacky, what is your Muslim name?’ I said Saheed and he said, ‘Since your initials are ABA, why not write under Abba Saheed so that people will think you are a Northerner?’ And because I used to quote copiously from the Qur’an, many years after, my readers from the North and the government officials thought I was a Northerner. That did the trick and the pen name has stuck since then. I have so many pen names; I used to write a woman’s column with the pen name, Busola Babat for Woman’s World. At that time, I was writing about 28 columns in Daily Times a week and there’s no way I could use just one name.

Was journalism a dream or you just stumbled on it?

I didn’t stumble on it; I started my career in 1959. Communication is part of my strength; communication in all its genres, whether in poetry, dancing, drumming or theatre. The love for the press was there, even in secondary school in Ago Iwoye, I had a press club and I was writing columns at that time and I did the same thing in Ijebu Ode Muslim College. When I got to the University of Ibadan, I founded the Writers’ Club in 1966 which had (Prof. Femi) Osofisan as a member. So, writing to me is giving expression to my thoughts and writing is the peg of journalism.

Were you more of a writer than a reporter?

Of course, I was also a reporter. I have always combined writing with reporting but I did more of feature writing and interviewing people. But I was chief correspondent of Daily Times in Western Region in 1973 before I became director of training in 1975.

As an insider, what would you say led to the demise of Daily Times?

I was chairman of the board and I was the managing director at the same time. After Jose, I was the only person who ever combined those two roles in Daily Times, so I could talk with authority having grown from being a reporter, chief correspondent, columnist, feature writer and ombudsman. What led to the demise of Daily Times is what would lead to the death of any organisation. As a husband, if you change your wife every two years, you will never settle. If an organisation changes its leadership every two years, that organisation will never make it. In a nutshell, that was what led to the death of Daily Times. Jose performed the miracles he performed because he was there for over 27 years as chief executive. The late Chief Obafemi Awolowo spent eight years as premier in Western Region and he had enough time to perform. If he had spent just two years, nobody would talk about him today.

But some people attributed it to what Jose did by replacing (Areoye) Oyebola with (Segun) Osoba as editor.

Well, I wouldn’t want to go into all that. Maybe if that crisis didn’t happen, the government would not have taken over. It was like a crack in the wall and so lizards started crippling in. Maybe if that didn’t happen, maybe what happened to Daily Times would not have happened. It is possible. But it was a tsunami that nobody could wave off; it contributed largely to the decline in the fortunes of the newspaper.

How did you combine your job as a journalist with drama?

I am a dramatist. I am the founder of Tola Adeniyi Foundation for Theatre and Arts. Drama has always been in my blood and I have been acting since I was five years old. I acted even when I was in koranic school. I acted in major Shakespearean plays throughout my secondary school days and in the university. Even in the University of Lancaster, I was also the president of the drama club just as I was in UI. At the same time, I was also the president of the literary and debating society. In fact, most people thought I would end up as a theatre man because I had been writing plays from secondary school. I was also an akewi (Yoruba poet) on Radio Nigeria.

Why did you move out of Nigeria?

In 1993, it was very clear to me that Nigeria might be very unsafe for me even though I was close to (Ibrahim) Babangida, (Sanni) Abacha but much closer to (Moshood) Abiola. After the annulment, I just found out that I was between the deep blue sea and the devil; loyalty to Babangida, loyalty to Abacha and loyalty to Abiola and then I was arrested, detained and tortured in Abuja. I was charged with importing arms. So after I was released, I went to the UK; in fact it was my friend, the late Chuba Okadigbo that persuaded me to go and teach at Lancaster University. We went there together.

Did you actually import arms or was it because of your closeness to Abiola?

I didn’t import anything and they searched my house. We did not want Abacha to take over and that was clear. Of course, I was close to Babangida, Abacha and Abiola but I knew where my priority was. I am a Yoruba person, there’s no doubt who had my sympathy.

How did you come to know the late Chinua Achebe?

I was the first person to adapt Things Fall Apart into a play for both radio and television in 1966. Chief Segun Olusola took me to him at Broad Street then in Lagos to get his permission.

Is that why you canvassed that he should have been given the Nobel laureate?

In fairness to Achebe, he was a prodigy, a great writer and I don’t know what parameters they use to select people for that award. But in my judgement and assessment, I think Achebe deserved one.

Is that why you insinuated in a piece you wrote to honour Achebe that those who won the prize probably knew its politics?

The Nobel Prize like any other prize given to people is selective. And when you select, it is subjective; it is something subjected to human sensibility and sensitivity and therefore, there is politics. The Nobel Prize is a human organisation and every human organisation has its own bad side. I believe, that the Nobel Prize could also have been polluted.

Were you aware of the flak your piece generated?

I don’t know about any flak. I just wrote my piece and I gave myself peace.

But some people took you up that you probably had something against Professor Wole Soyinka.

I didn’t mention Soyinka’s name. If I say a rogue wearing a white shirt and khaki trousers came to my house and I didn’t mention your name and some of your friends now come to tell you that you are the one I am referring to, it is they who want to call you a rogue. Whoever says I inferred anybody’s name, it is that person who in his or her assessment believes that person is the person I was talking about.

What do you have against Soyinka?

Soyinka was my teacher; he taught me at the University of Ibadan in 1967 and I was chairman of Free Soyinka Committee when he was arrested by General Yakubu Gowon and imprisoned. I was the national president of Free Soyinka Committee agitating for his release and I suffered terribly for it in the hands of the military at Ibadan at that time for him in 1967. When he had his 50th birthday, I organised a party in my house; so he is a senior citizen, a world citizen, a respected genius.

But with your tone in the piece, people believed that somehow, something happened between you.

I am telling you whoever believed must be the one who in their judgement and their assessment are saying that piece had anything to do with an individual. I didn’t mention anybody’s name; so whoever mentioned that I was referring to an individual in that piece are those who are alluding to that individual, not me.

But in your estimation, did Soyinka deserve the laureate prize?

I have no comment directly on that question. My answer would be people who had done far less than what Soyinka had done in the literary world had got the award and those who had done much better than he had done had not got the award.

Some literary minds found it awkward comparing Achebe and Soyinka in terms of whether one is greater than the other. In your own case, can you compare the two?

You don’t assess the work of arts that way; you cannot take two paintings and say this one is better than that one, just like you cannot compare the dance patterns of the Tivs and say they are better than the Yoruba dance steps. There is no way I can compare Soyinka and Achebe just as I cannot compare Fela and Sunny Ade, I cannot say one is better but I can say categorically that Fela is the greatest African genius that Africa has produced.

When you acknowledged some literary icons in the piece, it was very obvious that you deliberately left Soyinka out, why did you do that?

I forgot to mention his name.

You also practised journalism abroad. With your experience, how would you compare the profession here and there?

I think it is poles apart; it is very difficult to make an instant comparison because they don’t have the challenges that we have here. You don’t have the kind of challenges we have here over there at all; to that extent therefore, we may not be in a position to make that kind of comparison. But I would say that in terms of maturity and with my experience in both worlds, I found that African journalists, particularly Nigerian journalists, are more reasonable, more mature and more intelligent in their assessment of situations when they write about a subject. They may not have as much information as the American guy, but they have maturity of minds. I would summarise the western press as idiotic because when you see things that they glamourise in their news reportage, you just wonder whether they think at all or whether they even went to school. But a Nigerian man, by the time he is in Form four, he knows the geography of the whole world. There are many people in America, Europe who don’t have passports. In fact, more than 50 per cent of all of the Americans never ventured beyond their land of birth from the beginning and the end of their lives. They do not have exposure and they do not care. They know little or nothing about other places. Former President Bush of the United States did not know the capital of Canada which is his next door neighbour. He thought Toronto was the capital instead of Ottawa. So they are so uninformed even though they have all the gadgets, so that affects the quality of their writing and their thought process and judgement. They may display a better use of the language because it is their language but even then, there are American professors, Canadian professors who are not as good even in the delivery of the language as a senior lecturer in Nigeria. So, in total, if they are doing better, it is because they enjoy better political and economic climate, not because they are better practitioners of the profession. I score Nigerian journalists much higher.

How did you cope as a journalist without the Internet and other modern technology in your days?

You don’t miss what you don’t know. Shakespeare didn’t have electricity and he wrote so copiously. Jesus Christ didn’t see electricity or motor car and yet he moved round and evangelised. So, you don’t miss what you don’t know. We didn’t know; there was no television in Nigeria until 1959; we didn’t feel anything. There was no radio at a point in time; we used what was available.

We learnt that the print run of Daily Times for instance was very high…

At a time, Gbolabo Ogunsanwo’s Sunday Times sold over 900,000. At a time, Oyebola’s Daily Times sold over 900,000 also. Yes it happened because the economy at that time was better than what we have today. There were not many newspapers and so people had limited choice. It was also the period when government could buy many newspapers for all the executives and of course, it was the freshness that Jose brought into journalism. Before then, most leading journalists had only school certificates; people like (Lateef) Jakande and (Olabisi) Onabanjo, even though they went to Fleet Street to do diploma; they were very brilliant people. Enahoro never came second in his secondary school days and it showed in the quality of their works when they assumed leadership in the profession. So, the golden era of Daily Times was the time Jose brought in about 18 university graduates in one fell swoop. The quality of feature writing improved and Jose was a virtuoso even though he didn’t go beyond secondary education but Jose could engage any professor anywhere in the world. He was a tremendous manager of human resources.

An artist could be an eccentric; what was your own weakness?

I wouldn’t know the assessment people would make of me but there is no doubt in my mind that because of the love I had for my mother, I had very deep sympathy for women. I see my mother in all women I come across and I would be the last person to make a woman cry. So, I radiate a lot within female circle. In fact, in my early days in drama, I was acting female parts. I am a social drinker but if there is any eccentricity, it would be more of behavioural manifestation rather than affliction; you could be moody in one moment and crazy in another moment. It happens to every creative person.

Since you were close to your mum, did she arrange a wife for you?

No, not in that sense. What I am saying is that I have empathy for women because my mother suffered a lot when she was growing up and unimaginably, that drew me very close to her when I got to know her story. She became so close to my ethos; I am inclined to embrace women and have them as pets because they are more reliable and dependable, honest and more loyal than men and they are better managers. So when you are in the hands of women, you are more likely to succeed than when you are among male friends. But more than that, my mother didn’t choose a wife for me. I had a less than three months courtship and I got married.

How?

I met my wife August 26 and that very day I met her, I fixed the date of our marriage. I met her mother that very day and I looked at the calendar hung in their kitchen and said, ‘Mama, I am coming here to take your daughter on December 2.’ The mother asked her whether the man that brought her home was drunk.

What happened?

I just saw her and something just told me she was going to be my wife. I knew her in the university but there was nothing intimate and she knew me as an actor in the university. When I felt I should get married, I had a number of girlfriends but when I saw the young lady again, I felt she was the right person. It was a very unusual meeting; the meeting was in my house. She came for a party and I saw her and said her face looked familiar and I asked whether she was at Ibadan and she asked me whether I was that actor in Ibadan. Unfortunately that day, I had a girlfriend’s car with me, my own car had some problems and I offered to take her home together with her father’s tenants with whom she came to the party. I took them home and I asked to see her mum. I went to their kitchen and I said, ‘Mama, I am getting married to your daughter on December 2.’

But that could be risky.

Well, we have been married for over 40 years and no third party has ever sat down to settle any quarrel between us. It has never happened and God blessed us with beautiful children who are doing well in their endeavours.

Some people would still be curious to know what you found so special to act that way.

She was beautiful, elegant; she had a good figure, good height good skin and very calm. I knew her in the university; she was one of those devout Christians on campus whom I wouldn’t have touched that time. I realised that she was a kind of a woman a crazy man should marry for stability.

Even though you are not in partisan politics, some people would say you hobnob with quite a lot of politicians…

I don’t hobnob; I am 70. I have lived long enough in this country to know so many people; so I am not hobnobbing. If you say I have relationships or I am associated with a lot of people, it is okay but not hobnobbing. All those individuals in politics that you see me with are individuals I associate with, not their politics. That is why (Governor Segun) Mimiko is my friend, he is in Labour Party; that is why (Gbenga) Daniel is my friend and when I was actually working with him, he was in PDP. (Segun) Osoba is my friend, a senior colleague; Rauf Aregbesola is my friend, he is in APC. He is a fine gentleman and I have known him close to 35 years. So, when I associate with them, I do that because of the relationship between us. (Kayode) Fayemi is a fine gentleman that I associate with. I associate with him as a good aburo of mine; so also is Segun Oni, his predecessor. Babangida Aliyu worked almost directly under me when I was in the presidency as permanent secretary. He is my friend. Bafarawa is my friend, he was in ANPP when he was my friend, Peter Odili was in PDP and so on like that. I am not concerned about their politics when I associate with them. If I know somebody’s politics is hurting people, I distant myself from that individual.

Somebody even insinuated that you wrote that piece about Achebe to spite Soyinka because of your association with Gbenga Daniel.

I worked with Daniel, I didn’t work for him. Whoever thought that way must have been very uncharitable to me; he must have insulted me. Daniel is far junior to me in age and you think a Daniel would ask me or inspire me or instigate me to write something against somebody? It is not Tola Adeniyi. No human being in this world can influence my thought. I could be stubborn to a fault in that regard. I don’t inherit other people’s prejudices. If Daniel and Soyinka had issues, it was their business. I was very close to Abiola; I would sleep in his house, Kanmi Osobu would come and pick me to Fela’s place. I would sleep in Beko’s place and from there, I would tell them I was going to Ota, Obasanjo’s place. I knew that the three of them were sworn enemies. So when I was with Abiola, I won’t discuss Obasanjo’s issues and when I was with Fela, I won’t discuss Abiola. If they had quarrels, it’s not my business. But I saw qualities in each of them that I thought I could associate with. So Daniel had nothing to do with my piece on Achebe. And I still insist that my piece on Achebe had nothing to do with Soyinka, except somebody is saying so.

People would find it a bit hard to believe you are 70. Having lived a very busy life, what is the secret?

I give myself peace of mind and my blood pressure is very low. I may not sleep before 2am but when I get in bed, I am gone almost immediately and I may not wake up throughout till the following morning. When I sleep, I sleep and nothing bothers me because my human expectations are very limited. I don’t expect anything from anybody but if you give me, of course I would take it. I don’t place my hope on any human being and so I won’t be disappointed. I could stay in the best hotel in the world but I can also sleep on a mat and I would not feel any difference.

At a time, you were in the presidency as a permanent secretary; how did it happen?

With the civil service reform of 1988, the post of permanent secretary became politicised; they could bring people from outside to come and head ministries. That was what happened in my case. I was appointed in 1991 and charged with the responsibility of moving the seat of the Federal Government from Lagos to Abuja. I was the one who gave the key of Abuja to Babangida in December 1991 and yet, I don’t have a house there. I disbursed billions of naira.

But you could have it if you wanted?

Of course, if I needed houses in Abuja at that time, I either allocated one to myself or asked Babangida to give me one. I didn’t ask for that or oil blocs. As I told you, I am a contented person; why would I need a house in Abuja? Even directors under me, some of them had four, five houses. We were the ones allocating houses to people; I was the one allocating houses to ministries but I don’t own one. Even the only land I owned there was taken over by Olusegun Obasanjo when he became president. He said I didn’t develop it.

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Mr. Folorunsho Ojo, 76, a furniture maker, shares his life experiences in this interview with ADEOLA BALOGUN

By now, you are expected to have slowed down but you still resume work normally.

Well, I have always loved working very hard. I believe that since I still feel very strong and healthy, the best thing for me is to come to work and do what I have been used to doing for years. I can’t just wake up and stay at home beyond 9 or 10 am; what would I be doing? I cannot afford to stay at home for a whole day without going to work. I have made up my mind to work until I can no longer walk. That is why I prefer to meet anyone who wants to see me in my office because when I return home, I want to rest and sleep. I do what I can and supervise my workers and since God has not retired me, I don’t want to retire myself.

How was growing up?

I was born in July 1938 at 19 Odunfa Street, Ebute Meta, Lagos and in 1944, my parents sent me back to our village in Kogi State for my primary school education. When I finished Primary Six, my parents wanted me to go to the only available good school in Keffi but I said I didn’t want to further my education. I told them I would love to learn a trade that could make me use my hands to create things. That was when I went for cabinet making and I was trained by Costain West Africa. I was at Costain until I rose to become a supervisor and by 1969, I resigned after working there for 15 years. But before I left, I had saved some money. I had built a house, built a workshop beside it and employed one of my subordinates to start work there. I was paying him the exact salary Costain paid him; the man has worked with me for over 40 years and he is still with me till date.  I joined him after I resigned and I thank God that I made it. I can confidently tell you that I have made a name as far as furniture work is concerned in this city and beyond.

How was furniture making business then?

It was poor, but in my case, apart from the fact that Italians trained me, I was very hardworking. When I finished training and I was properly employed, I was getting £10 as salary at a time until it became £30. At a very tender age, I had cultivated the habit of saving any amount of money I made. Then I was banking with UBA, Ijora branch. In 1972, I used the documents of the house I built at Somolu, (that is where my mother is today), to borrow money from Cooperative Bank to travel to London to buy tools. The tools are still available in my workshop till date. That was how I started and I employed about 30 workers.

Would you have gone further in education if you had someone to sponsor you?

I didn’t need sponsors. My parents were ready to send me to school but I was the one that said I wanted to use my hands. I was even persuaded to train as an electrician but I said I wanted to be able to build things on my own.  My father died 24 years ago and before he died, I was already rich. Even when I came back to Lagos in 1961, my father insisted that I should go to school or else he would disown me but I refused. He retired from Nigeria Railways while my mother was a petty trader.  There was nothing my father did not do to persuade me to go to school but I told him that I wanted to use my hands. And when I later became a successful furniture maker, he apologised for what he did and I told him I was glad I stood my ground.

So there is no regret that you didn’t go further educationally?

Regret? I am even better than my peers who went to school and became professors.  This is the picture of one of them, Professor Olumehin. We left Standard 7 together. He rose to become a professor and died at the age of 74. None of my peers or mates was more blessed or more successful than me. Many of them have been retired while others have died. Even after some of them were retired and came back to the village, they didn’t even have a good house to live in. I really thank God for guiding my steps and leading me to my destiny.

When you were in school, did you have problems comprehending what was taught and quit in frustration?

I had good results throughout. I would have even shown you my results now but I don’t know exactly where I kept them. I purposely opted to train as an artisan because I didn’t fancy any white collar job.  I had the opportunity of going to trade centres but at that time, if you go to a trade centre, the only place you could work was at the PWD where you would not have a free hand. But the Italians taught me how to set blocks and  paint. I am not only a cabinet maker and upholsterer, I am a machine operator. As at last year, I had trained about 52 apprentices. Not that I am not intelligent; in fact, if you are not intelligent, you cannot do this job because it requires a lot of calculations. If you are not intelligent, you can’t calculate.

It is amazing that you could express yourself fluently in English Language, how did you learn the language?

When I finished my apprenticeship, I took a step to develop myself. I got enrolled at the National High School but when I joined the company; my Italian bosses didn’t allow me to do that successfully. I wanted to read up to school certificate level but I didn’t have the time. Then, we could close as late as 10pm. In those days, they weren’t hanging clocks in workshops so you would not even know the time. The Italians did everything to engage me because of my skills; I even built flying boats for the company at a time. When I wanted to retire, my Italian boss said no, I could not go. But when I eventually left, I was paid one year salary in appreciation of what I did for the company.  After six months, my immediate boss visited my workshop in Ebute Meta and was very happy to see my machines and the progress I had made in such a short time. He informed me that he was going to Kumasi, Ghana; that he could not work at Costain without me. Before I resigned, I had got enough customers so I wasn’t looking for customers when I opened my workshop. I became a contractor for the likes of UAC, University of Lagos and my last contract was with the NNPC.

When you said you were not going to school again, didn’t some of your mates make jest of you?

That is natural. They couldn’t comprehend why I chose to become a ‘carpenter’ but I knew what I was doing. Even in 1961 when I wanted to come down to Lagos, I didn’t have transport fare. It was my step mother that gave me money and prayed for me. She said she saw determination in me and said she believed I would be a big man in future. She was very prophetic whereas my father would not hear any of that. He threatened to disown me because he couldn’t understand why his first son would choose to disgrace him by shunning school for apprenticeship.

Why did you even choose furniture making?

I was fascinated by the beauty of a showroom; I love to build something and put it up in my showroom for people to see and buy. And through this job, I have met important people in the society such as ministers, even governors and other big men in Nigeria. I knew that if I worked hard, God would bless me and I thank Him for  blessing me. When I was an apprentice, I had an accident and doctors wanted to amputate one of my legs. Because of the money they demanded, my father agreed that my leg should be cut, but his friend,  Mr. Ekemode from Ilesa, shouted and said it was not proper for his first son to have his leg amputated. Then, when my father died and I buried him, Ekemode was there, he thanked me for giving my father a befitting burial despite what happened. And when he too died, I buried him just as a son would bury his father. If not for him, they probably would have cut my leg and I would have ended up perhaps as a miserable shoemaker somewhere.

But when your peers that chose to go to school sat in air-conditioned desks after they finished, how did you feel?

I preferred to sweat and use my hands and I am happy that I am better. I am now 76 and here I am in my own office. If I had gone further and worked, I probably would have been asked to retire at 60. I have many of them in the village selling rice, beans and elubo after retirement. I really thank God and I have no regret at all.

How is furniture work now?

It is a very good job. At times, people may think you are an armed robber when you hit it because it is possible to invest just N50,000 to make N500,000. But you have to be very skilful and honest. Without honesty, there is no way you can make it as a furniture maker because anybody you rob today will not come back tomorrow. I remember when the late General Murtala Mohammed took over government in 1975, I was working for the Sports Council in Yaba, Lagos then as a contractor.  Some of our contractor colleagues colluded with officials to present invoices for works that were not done or delivered to collect huge sums of money. But I refused to join them. I would make sure that my LPO and invoices were genuine for work done because very early in my life, I vowed that I would not add what was not rightly mine to make money. When Murtala came, he jailed some of the contractors who presented invoices for works that were not done. I remember that when President Shehu Shagari’s government was sacked in 1983, I couldn’t get my money for a contract I did at Metallurgical Training Institute, Onitsha. I borrowed money from the Cooperative Bank to execute the contract, using my house as collateral. So, I went to the head office of the bank in Ibadan to explain what happened to me and to know how I would be paying back. The third day, I got a contract from the NNPC that was more than my debt to the bank. My debt was N25,000 and the NNPC contract was more than N70,000. Out of the 50 per cent  upfront, I paid off my entire debt to the bank and the management wrote to ask me not to leave the bank.  Most of my jobs advertised me because I would make sure I use the right materials.

Why is it that furniture pieces made nowadays don’t last any more?

Most of the makers nowadays don’t learn enough; they are in a hurry. There are no apprentices any longer as most of them have now become okada riders. At times too, it depends on the state of the wood used in making the furniture. It is very important to use dry woods to do any furniture piece for it to last. The foams that we use too, there are fake and original foams but I don’t use fake because I want my clients to always remember me.

Did you have to know some of the big men in these companies to be able to win contracts?

Well, I told you that my jobs really advertised me. I remember one Chief Edun, he is retired now. When I was at my showroom at 74 Old Yaba Road, one day, he was just passing by and parked. Then he was living around Somolu as a tenant of a landlord friend. I was introduced to him and he was the one that invited me to UAC and through Edun, I knew other managers of different companies. I furnished the office of Chief Earnest Shonekan on the 12th floor. So anybody who visited his office wanted to know who did the furnishing. I told you I worked with Costain, so I learnt so many things there that still help me till date.

When young men start making money, they spend it on things like women and drinking. How did you manage when you started making money?

You would not be successful if you do that. I didn’t know any woman before I got married. I just hated women. When I built my first house, I only had two shirts and two pairs of trousers. I never bothered my head about women or drinking or going to the cinema. I believed that was not the way to be successful in life. Right from school, I had always hated women and we always quarrelled. Even when I was working, I had the belief that if you didn’t spend, you would not be able to chase women and because of this, I kept to myself. Even after I got married, I realised that the fleeting enjoyment you get when you sleep with a woman is not worth the trouble. If I had been doing that before I got married and continued chasing different women, do you think I would still be like this today? No way. Now I can tell you that I don’t feel any difference in me between now and 30 years ago. I may be getting old in terms of figure, but my body is strong because I didn’t waste my energy unnecessarily. Drinking or carrying women all about is nothing but a waste of energy. You can’t gain anything; you only lose. I know that very well. Sex has never been my hobby.

Were you then forced to get married?

Nobody forced me. I married at the age of 26. My wife is a housewife and she really took care of the children. My marriage is now over 50 years. My grandchild is now in the university. My wife has been out of the country for a while on a visit to one of our children.

What of your children, did you ask them to follow in your footsteps too?

Two of them are in the same line of business with me even though they have their degrees. I trained one of them here and asked him to go and work with another furniture company for a while. Now, he is on his own doing contracts. But all my children are well educated. I have seven children; six of them have graduated and are married. The last one is studying medicine and that is why he has not graduated. I trained all of them from what I made from my furniture work. My children see me as a model and they want to follow in my footsteps. I told them that I didn’t have the opportunity to combine school with craft. I impressed it on them that they should look at ways of using their hands together with their degrees and they took to my advice. Among them, there are big time caterers, plumbers apart from their degrees and they are doing well. They are educated and at the same time, they like to use their hands. None of my children has less than first degree and they are well established. The one in London is a PhD holder.

Would you say you are fulfilled?

By the special grace of God, I am a fulfilled person.

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Chief Paul Alabi was the deputy governor of Ekiti State during the regime of former Governor Niyi Adebayo. He shares his life experiences in this interview with TUNDE AJAJA

You seem to love farming so much; does it have to do with your upbringing?

Yes. I started farming at a very young age. At about five years or so, people used to come and hire me from my mother to work in their farms. That was even before I started going to school. My father wanted me to go to school but my mother wanted me to be a farmer. He was a trader and was always travelling, so my mother was in charge. She would hire me out to people and I started taking interest in farming.  I had my own farm when I was about six years old in 1950 at the back of our house where I planted corn and other things.

So, how did you manage to go to school?

My starting point in education was very rough because my father had two wives and my mother was the junior. The senior wife had a son who was 21 days older than me. My father decided that I must go to school like my step brother who started three years earlier. He said there was no way he would have two sons and one would be going to school while the other would be going to farm, but my mother insisted that I must be a farmer. So there was a big family quarrel in the house. One day, my father forcefully took me to Hossana African Primary School, Ijesa Isu-Ekiti and the only thing I was putting on was my mother’s wrapper with no pants. That was how I started going to school.

Have you always lived in Ijesa-Isu?

I am a native of Ijesa-Isu-Ekiti but I was born on 25th May, 1944 in Ikole-Ekiti. When I was five years old, my mother took me to my father in Ijesa-Isu where he lived. My mother lived in the palace in Ikole.

After your primary education, how did you proceed?

My father declared that he had no money and said he wasn’t interested in sending us to school anymore. He advised us to find our way. I got a teaching job in 1957 through which I was able to save some money. When I passed the entrance examination into Ekiti Parapo College, I wrote a letter to Chief Obafemi Awolowo and Chief Ayo Okusaga, who was the minister of education, for assistance. They both replied to say they couldn’t give me any personal assistance. I was 13 years old then. From my savings, I went to African Church Teachers Training College in Ikere-Ekiti where I did my Grades II and III. I left there in 1964 and went back to teach to raise money. I was admited to the University of Ibadan in 1966 where I studied Sociology. Through my savings from the teaching job, I finished the first year and I was able to find my way through the second and third years with the help of the scholarship programme introduced by Chief Awolowo under Gen. Yakubu Gowon, called Indigent Students Award, coupled with contributions from fellow students.

What were you doing after school?

When I left UI, I taught at Fiwasaye Girls Secondary School in Akure between June and December, 1969. In January 1970, I joined the Federal Civil Service as an Administrative Officer and I left as a director of budget in the Federal Ministry of Finance in May 1994. I wanted to vary my experience from public life, so I was hired by Church-Gate Group of Companies between 1994 and June 1997. When I became tired of city life, I resigned. They begged me and even promised to double my salary but I refused. So I left and came home to resume farming.

So, how did you end up in politics?

When I came back, I was looking for farmland to start planting cassava and other things. In November, 1997, I visited my cousin, the then Elekole of Ikole, Oba Adeleye. As I was descending the stairs, I met Chief Apara and Olu whose nickname was Cash and Carry. They said they wanted me to join DPN. I declined initially because I never thought of being a politician in my life. I personally detest the way politicians lie and their cunning way of doing things. I was confused so I went back to tell the Elekole, being my cousin. He advised that I should consider their offer. He said it was good to be inside to help than to be outside complaining. That was how I was lured into politics just as Otunba Adebayo dragged me into becoming his deputy.

How did you meet Otunba Niyi Adebayo?

I knew him when I was in the civil service. He used to come to the ministry as a lawyer and businessman. I wanted to contest for the governorship position and he too was vying for the same office, so in 2008, he came to my house on a Sunday afternoon with late Barr. Dayo Fajuyi and Akogun Ogunleye. We had formed the AD then. I asked if he had come to surrender, but he said he was sure of winning the election. He said he came because he wanted me to be his deputy and when he said this, I laughed. We were 28 contestants and when there was no progress on the selection, I presented my draft for N250,000 for the primary to the party and I withdrew. So the leadership of the party said I would be made the deputy to whoever emerged for taking such step. Eventually, after a serious screening, four of them went to the primary and he won. That was how I became his deputy.

After your administration, one would have expected that you would remain in the same party with him. What made you part ways?

The then leadership of the Action Congress at the headquarters had a chosen candidate for the 2007 governorship election which was not known to us and we were all seeing them as an impartial umpire. But when we found out that they were scheming to favour Governor Kayode Fayemi, all of us, including Senator Bode Olowoporoku and Prince Ayo Adeyeye left.

It was alleged that you said Otunba Adebayo did not do anything for your community when he was the governor?

The question you would ask is what did he do for his own community that would make me say he didn’t do for mine. In fairness to him, the hospital in this town was upgraded to a general hospital during our administration. He also rehabilitated this road that passed through my house before we left. But we are still very close.

But you were the chairman of the State Tenders Board which handled capital projects, one would expect you to have taken advantage of that.

If that is how things work in government, things would have been better than this everywhere.

Even some of your kinsmen said you didn’t do anything for them? What specific thing did you do for them?

What could I have done for them? I don’t believe such report.

You were once considered for ministerial appointment under this dispensation, what made you lose out?

I’m not aware, and that could have affected my life too. Do you know how many people I employ daily in my farm? People even come from neighbouring towns and states to work here. I feel fulfilled being of help to people in one way or the other. I believe that you can make a difference anywhere you are if you do things differently. So you don’t have to be a minister before you can impact people’s lives. Everyone of us cannot be minister at the same time; so if we have that kind of orientation, there would be less trouble in the land.

The youths of today are poised for white collar jobs, how do you react when they come to you to ask for money?

They always bombard me with applications and I counsel them to embrace farming. I also help them in any way I could.

What do you think makes them not to have interest in farming?

It is due to a generational gap and poor orientation because they are surrounded by people looking for appointment.

Having held such an exalted office as deputy governor, one would not have expected to meet you  in the farm?

As the deputy governor, I was still farming. I employed people and I made sure I spent my weekends here. I couldn’t attend most government parties and some avoidable  engagements on weekends because of my farm which is now my office and I am proud of saying that anywhere. Even when I was a civil servant in Abuja, I was still farming in places like Kubwa and some people knew me then. My farm is big enough as employment for me.

Would you say you are richer as a farmer than as the deputy governor?

Not only richer, but I am happier. What happens is that most people measure wealth in terms of naira and kobo, but that is not how I see it. I guess that’s why I said I am happier because being happy is more important than being rich. I don’t have any political ambition again and there is nothing I want that God has not done for me. I can’t build a house again, I won’t marry another wife or have more kids. So, I am happy and contented with what I have.

Don’t you think you are missing out in politics?

I am not missing out anywhere as long as I’m happy, fulfilled and convinced that I’m adding value to people’s lives, which is more than running up and down looking for favours. For me, politics is not the end of everything. I now regard myself as an elder statesman. I cherish my peace of mind. In fact, a day outside my farm is like a day in hell. I have joy here; I eat fresh things and impact people’s lives. My people are even happy that I returned home.

So you prefer being in the farm than being in any public office?

Yes. Comfort and contentment are the baseline. Money is not everything but that doesn’t mean it is not important; it is. Politics is not the only profession. We have been misled to think that someone cannot live a good life or contribute meaningfully to the development of the society except by holding a public office.

Does that mean if you had been made a minister, you would have rejected it?

They may not even make me one because I don’t know how to lobby. In this country, people who play good roles are not recognised as much as the noisemakers. Even when I joined politics, I didn’t lobby to be made the deputy governor.

Did you know that you would be successful in farming?

No. I couldn’t have. I was a child of circumstance because my father wanted me to go to school while my mother wanted me to be a farmer. So their separate wishes for me have been fulfilled, even though it pains me that my father did not live to see what I have become. But my mother was alive till 2008 and she saw me farming which made her happy.

In 2007, you went to Ado-Ekiti to sell foodstuff to workers; what was the motive?

It was to assist my constituency which is the civil service. I don’t take my produce to the market in Ado, I only take them to the secretariat where my people are being exploited by the middlemen who buy the produce and sell at exorbitant prices, so I didn’t want that for those in my constituency. I am not desperate for profit.

But some said it was political?

No, how could it have been political? As the deputy governor, I was selling yam and when I left office, I continued. The way I see things is different from how many people do.

When do you hope to retire from farming?

That is when I die because it is only death that will make me retire from farming. Even if I am invited to Abuja, Lagos or anywhere else, I will continue to farm. In fact, I will prefer to die in the farm than in the house because whatever interests you, gives you joy and happiness is your friend and you should always stay with it. My 8:00am to 2:00pm in the farm everyday, apart from Sundays, is important to me.

How do you relax?

There is nothing as relaxing as farming. It is the most relaxing thing I have ever seen in life. When you move from where you plant yam to where you plant plantain and from there you move to where your labourers are working, you are exercising yourself. And when I am home, I sit under the shade outside for natural air, what is more relaxing than all those?

Since you love agriculture so much, do you cook?

Yes. I cook very well. Who will cook for me in the farm? I cook in the farm but my wife cooks for me at home and I eat two times a day. Her food is so delicious and some of my workers have been beneficiaries and I’m sure they won’t forget the experience.

How would you want your farm to be handled after you?

I hope and pray that it will be well handled because not all the children of today have interest in farming. I believe in the ‘do your best and leave the rest’ theory.

Is any of your children interested in following in your footsteps?

Some are interested in it, especially the females who are medical doctors. And if they can’t run it, that is their headache. Mine is to run the place to my satisfaction while I am alive. What happens thereafter is left to them and I say good luck to them. If they want to sell it, good luck to them. If there is anything that I hope for in life now, it is good health.

How many years would you want to spend on earth?

That is something that you have no control over. I live everyday of my life as if I won’t know the second minute, so I don’t bother myself about death; it can come at anytime. My mother spent 105 and my father spent 84 years, so I tell people to add the two numbers and divide by two, if that is okay. It is not how long but how much you contribute to life itself. That is the way I run my life; my house is open; no security or exotic cars. I have nothing to hide because life itself is not hidden. I have shown my children where to bury me, beside my wife, which is also where my mother was buried.

How have you been meeting your financial needs since you claim you sell your farm produce at a reduced price?

I am a pensioner as a retired civil servant and as a former deputy governor. There was a bill that was passed by the Ekiti State House of Assembly which was signed into law by Governor Fayemi, which makes provision for pension for a governor and his deputy if they finish their tenure, and Otunba Niyi Adebayo and myself qualify for it. When you have moderate ambition, God can enlarge it for you. And as a farmer, I produce things like palm oil, yam, fish and palm kernel in good quantities and I still give out some of them and God blesses me more. I also have children who are grown who send money to me, so I am ok.

But one would have expected that the money you made as the deputy governor would be enough to last you for a lifetime?

(Laughs) Ask people around. I spent my own money even as the deputy governor. I had built my house and had cars before I became the deputy governor. You won’t believe it. People know that there is nothing extraordinary in what I have either before, during or after, both in lifestyle and properties.

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In this interview, Chief Ayo Ogunlade, a minister in the late Gen. Sani Abacha and Gen. Olusegun Obasanjo administrations shares his experiences with Tunde Ajaja

As the only son of your parents, how was growing up like?

I am a thoroughbred Ekiti man, but was accidentally born in Lagos in March 18, 1931. My father was from Ilupeju-Ekiti and my mother was from Oye-Ekiti, but I grew up in the Gold Coast, now called Ghana. I used the word accidental because my mother had reached menopause when she became pregnant and gave birth to me. She lived in Ghana with my father and it was during one of her business trips to Nigeria that the boat she boarded landed in Marina and she went into labour. So, I was born in Lagos but bred in Ghana. My father’s age was above 60 years when I was born and as his only son, he used to call me his brother, though I had sisters too. I learnt that my immediate elder sister nearly killed me because all attention shifted from her to me.

You started your primary education in Ghana, how was it then?

I started my primary school in the Gold Coast and got up to Standard Five and I was preparing to go to secondary school when my mother said I should come back to Nigeria to continue my education. So we came back leaving my father there. He cried when I told him I was leaving but he had to let go. We came back to Oye-Ekiti where my grandmother lived. In those days, one could not be admitted to teachers’ college without a standard six certificate and teaching experience and I had not finished my standard six then, so, I went to Methodist Primary School, Ifaki-Ekiti to complete standard school and then went to Aaye-Ekiti to serve as a pupil teacher for a year. My mother wanted me to attend Christ School but my nephew said I was too tall for my age. Eventually, I went to Wesley College in 1950.

What was your experience at the tertiary level?

I was the college organist and senior prefect in my final year. That was the first time one person was combining the two offices. I went to Nigerian College of Arts, Science and Technology for my ‘A’ levels, before I went to the University of Ibadan in 1959 where I studied English Language. I went for my Master’s in Mass communication with specialisation in electronic media at Yale Foreign Students Institute in New Haven, Connecticut, United States and I did an internship with the Voice of America. I didn’t want to teach, so I decided to go into broadcasting which I had always loved.

For you to have travelled in those days means you were from a privileged background.

Yes. You can say that. Though, after primary school, the rest of my education was at public expense but my mother did her best when she needed to. When I was admitted to  Wesley College in 1950, I got the Ekiti Native Authority’s Scholarship of £15 per annum which covered everything that I needed then. At the Nigerian College of Arts, Science and Technology, I won the Western Nigeria scholarship, and at the University of Ibadan, my education was on the Federal Government of Nigeria’s scholarship which also took me to the United States. Those were the days positions were waiting for you even before you finished your degree programme. But if you did well in your degree, you could go on for a post graduate programme. I took advantage of that. At the end of my first semester in the US, I got the assistance of the United States Agency for International Development. I can say I am one to whom much was given and who struggled to give much in return.

You were once a journalist, what was the starting point?

I started with the Western Nigeria Broadcasting Corporation and Western Nigeria Television in 1963. I had opportunities that made it possible for me to reach a high level in my career in broadcasting within six months. In 1963, Segun Olusola, who was the executive producer at the corporation, went to join the NBCTV, and being a senior producer and the most qualified, I became the executive producer at WNTV/WNBC three months after I joined the organisation. In March 1964, the head of the Lagos office died, so, they wanted someone who knew Lagos very well to be in charge because much of the revenue for the corporation came from Lagos, so I became Acting Controller of Programmes in six months. So, in six months, I was already on top of my  career and that was why I didn’t go for a Ph.D and my stay there was quite an experience which placed me at a  very big advantage.

Was that contributory to how you became the Information minister in General Obasanjo’s administration?

It is part of the grace of God. Being the most senior staff at the controller level then, I acted for the General Manager, Teju Oyeleye, whenever he went on study leave or tour. Obasanjo was the Commander, Second Division at Ibadan during the Biafra War in 1966. Obasanjo came to me through a friend, Yinka Johnson. Yinka already told me that the commander of the army in the western group of states wanted to come and see me and I said he was welcome. So Obasanjo came and said the army wanted me to do a programme to help in sensitising the people about the war and that they wanted me to do it myself even though I was the head of the programmes department. I agreed but with the condition that they wouldn’t tell me what to do; they should only tell me what they wanted to achieve and I would advise them on how to get it. That was how I knew him. So, I created a slot which was called You and the War, and all the war commanders were coming on air.

How then were you appointed a minister?

I had moved from broadcasting into the main civil service then. I was an administration officer Class 1 when I was deployed to go and start the Broadcasting Service of Ondo State, which I did. In March 1977, I had just returned from Jos where I had gone to attend a meeting organised by the Broadcasting Organisation of Nigeria, and I was watching the 9pm news when it was announced that the federal executive council had been dissolved and that five members were dropped and replaced. I heard my name, G.A. Ogunlade, as one of the replacements. I hurried to the house of the head of service to tell him. He too didn’t know it was me until he called the governor to confirm.

How did you feel when it was confirmed that it was you?

(Indignant) I was very angry because I had always avoided being involved in political matters and public offices. So I asked the head of service if I should go. He said the governor would receive the signal the following day and really, the signal came. In fact, the letter instructed the governor to arrange for me to appear in Lagos for the swearing-in. That was how I became a member of the federal executive council.

You spent only one year as the minister, why were you removed so quickly?

We wanted every state to have their own radio station without interference from other states and some military governors were very vociferous in attacking that policy and some other things I was doing as the minister then. The final straw was when I went on an official visit to information institutions and installations in Kaduna State and I paid a courtesy visit to the administrator, Usman Jibrin. Kaduna was the centre of political activities then and Jibrin, in the presence of the press, said so many things about the Federal Government and expressed his dissatisfaction with the reforms we were doing in the information sector. I was forced to reply him there and everything I could have explained to him in his office was said there in response to him. When I got back to Lagos, Obasanjo had watched what happened on television and he called me to ask if it was true. I learnt he summoned Jibrin to the government house that day and fired him immediately. I learnt that some administrators said at the Supreme Military Council meeting held the following day that I, being a bloody civilian among them, was wielding so much power and insisted that I must be removed. So, I was told by his Chief of Staff, Shehu Yar ‘Adua, that I had been redeployed back to my station in Ondo State and to the surprise of many, I felt relieved. Obasanjo and I are still very close till today and we hold nothing against ourselves.

You must have enjoyed the paraphernalia of office.

It wasn’t ceremonious as it is now. As a minister then, you only had a car, a driver and free ministerial quarters at Ikoyi. Not like today when you have ministers blaring siren and moving in convoys. There was no police officer standing behind you when you were talking. All we had was the dignity of office; being a member of the Federal Executive Council of Nigeria.

You also served under the late head of state, Gen. Sani Abacha, how did you meet him?

I never met Abacha before I became a minister under him. I was only making my contribution at the Constituent Assembly between 1994 and 1995 when some friends told me that they learnt that I was being considered for a ministerial position but that they were surprised that I didn’t seem to care. I asked them how I could care about something that I didn’t know and truly, I didn’t know. But when it was eventually announced, people congratulated me. I was made the minister of national planning. If anything at all, Abacha is one clear cut illustration of what Mark Anthony said in Julius Caesar: The evil that men do lives after them; it is the good that is buried with them, so let it be with Caesar, let it be with Abacha . I have no regret at all being co-opted, as it were, into Abacha’s regime because I never lobbied for it.

He has been accused of looting the resources of the country, don’t you still have regret working with him?

The fact is that I don’t regret serving in the Abacha regime. He gave me a free hand to operate and serve according to my conscience which has also helped me till today. I told him how I would like to operate and he agreed.

But he has been accused of being corrupt?

Good. That is one side of the coin. No currency can be legal tender unless it has two sides and there is no leader in this country who has escaped that. But for Gowon, Lagos would have grounded to a halt. The flyovers and bridges such as the second mainland bridge were Gowon’s work. He fought a three-year war to keep Nigeria one but when he was toppled, nobody listed all the good things that he did. It was only the bad ones that were listed.

Do you agree that Abacha was a dictator?

Every military government is a dictatorship because nobody puts them there; they put themselves there. So you cannot single one of them out and say he is a dictator. Who wasn’t a dictator? Who chose Gowon? Who voted Aguiyi Ironsi into power? Who voted any of the military rulers in? To say one of them is a dictator is merely singling somebody out of a whole chain of dictators. We run away from the truth and choose the one which is convenient for us. There is no one of them who can claim that he wasn’t a dictator. Tell me one and I will tell you what he did. Just like Gowon has two sides, we are talking about his good sides but we are not talking about the good sides of the others. I don’t subscribe to the fact that only Abacha was the dictator military head of state. By their training, upbringing, attitude, defence and protection of their future, they are trained to take and give orders.

Another $458m of his loot was withheld by the US government, and his tenure has been described as the most corrupt ever. What do you say to that?

Blessed are those whose iniquities are covered. I don’t know how you want to interpret that. When you set out to dig out the bad side of something, it is only that evil side that you will see, you won’t find the other side.

Why do you think people are focusing on him?

They are not focusing on him. Let somebody like Abubakar do something that could make his opponents dig out his other side of the coin and you would find out that there are things which could come out of it.

There is a view that everyone who worked with Abacha tends to be rich for life because of what they benefited under his government?

I can speak for myself. I had built my house before I became a minister under Abacha. I moved into my house in 1985 and I became a minister under him in 1995. The only addition to this house since I moved in is the chapel which was built 10 years ago. I used to have two cars; now I have one. I don’t have a security guard; I don’t have a bank account abroad. It is over-generalisation to say that everyone who served under Abacha became multi-billionaires. We even joke here in the house and my family members ask why I don’t have a house in Lagos, Abuja and other areas like others and I tell them that if I had those things, I could be in Kirikiri by now. But so far, nobody has invited me for questioning.

Do you have any regret to have worked with him?

I felt fulfilled because I had the opportunity to help in salvaging a sinking and bankrupt economy and the opportunity of being part of a team that rescued Nigerian economy. In terms of inflation, consumer price index, budgeting process, etc, we did our best. The evil that men do is what is living after Abacha. The good that he did was buried with him. I’m not saying that Abacha was a saint or that he didn’t do those things that people are seeing now, but what I’m saying is that apart from all those things that are coming out, he also did many good things worth mentioning. If you dig into Babangida’s regime with the aim of finding out what he did wrong, you will write volumes. It applies to all of them, even our revered sage, Chief Obafemi Awolowo.

As a minister, how were you able to manage women who would want to have a share of the fame associated with the office?

Well, women were coming but I had no time or need for girlfriends and I had nothing to offer them because ministry of national planning had no projects to execute. I didn’t construct roads or dams or build houses, I only coordinated the plans of other ministries based on what was available. So, I didn’t have much patronage, as it were, because I had no contract to award.

How did you end up having more than one wife?

I think it was by choice. My mother was an influential and successful trader but she was too protective, choosy and snobbish. She sent my girlfriends and the ladies that admired me away. I had to defy her to marry a lady I loved secretly when I was 26 years old. She had a baby girl for me but she slept with two other men and had babies for them. That ended the relationship. When I came back from America in 1963, I made up my mind to remain single and never to marry again because I thought no woman could be trusted. But when I found a girl that I thought my mother would like, I took her home and married her in 1965. My first wife was a senior civil servant travelling here and there in the convoy of the governor and other top shots and it remained in my mind that what happened to me once shouldn’t happen again. So, I made up my mind to marry a second wife which I did. When I told them that I wanted to go back home, my first wife declined coming with me but the second came with me. I insisted on returning home because I wanted to be familiar with my roots. I wanted to go home so that my children could have a father to meet at home. Though she doesn’t live with me, she visits and we still talk everyday. Both of them are over 70 years now.

Was there opposition?

Of course, naturally. But they are both born again Christians; one is a daughter of a missionary and the other had a degree in theology. So, we are all living in peace and I have no regret at all and I always thank God for the peace we have always enjoyed.

As an elder in church, how comfortable are you with having two wives?

I am only an elder in church by virtue of my age, that’s all. When the early Christians came, they didn’t drive the elders with more than one wife away from church. Even the Bible says when we get to heaven, there is no marriage. My bishop and archbishop know that I have two wives and they don’t discriminate against me because of that.

How many years would you like to live?

I am ready to go tomorrow. It is not about my wish. It’s as long as it pleases my maker, which could be immediately you leave here. But strangely enough, my children don’t even think I should ever die, they think I should live forever. If death comes anytime, I am ready because there is nothing that God could do for any human being that he has not done for me. I have children, grand children and great grandchildren and they are all fine and at peace with one another.

How would you like to be buried?

I have told my children that I must be buried within one month and nobody should spend money to put ceramic tiles in the tomb where I will be buried; that is wasteful spending. The Bible says dust thou art, to dust thou shall return, so, why should they put me in a place where I cannot turn to dust, and they shouldn’t just leave a slab on it, they should fill it with sand and  even dance on it possibly until they hear the wood of the casket break. I want to die when I will not be a burden to my children or somebody that they would have to hide.

Is there anything you wish you had which you still hope for?                                     

All I want is for God to let me still be around to see a new Nigeria in which everybody regards his neighbour as a neighbour and blood relation and where politics will not be the only way to wealth, relevance, fame and glamour. I hope it happens during my time, though I have my doubts,  I pray that I may see it happen.

Do you do any form of exercise?

Yes. I walk around a lot, drive myself and I still do at least twenty press-ups every morning, even at 83 years old. The only thing is that my wife is often worried when I don’t eat in the morning, and why should I eat when I don’t feel hungry?

You were a minister when Ekiti State was created; what did you do to contribute to its creation?

Those who are very close to me then used to say, rhetorically, that, are my people aware that Ekiti State was created for me? Most of the people who claimed to have fought for the creation of the state actually worked and they tried but nothing would have come out of it if they didn’t have somebody in there who was pressing the button. The Ewi of Ado Ekiti knows some of my contributions. There was hardly a week that the Ewi would not call me to know the update. My colleagues in the cabinet almost criticised me for mentioning the issue too much. I don’t publicise my contributions or achievements. I don’t put such things down and I don’t talk about them.

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Prof. Winifred Fashola, tells ‘Nonye Ben-Nwankwo and Tunde Ajaja, how she rose to become a professor despite the challenges she encountered during her academic pursuits

How easy was it for you to get to this position, despite your age?

It feels good. It has been a long journey. A research that I should have finished in four or five years took me nine years because of some circumstances. There was a time when I had finished writing the dissertation for my Master’s and because of one mark, through the mistake of one of the lecturers, I was not admitted to Ph.D class. I needed 60 per cent, but I got 59 per cent. So, I had to stay again for another two years. At a time, I took a break and went to the UK for vacation. When I came back, I met a professor who offered to help me with my research work.  He did a marvellous job and I was eventually done with it. I took it to a typesetter who brought the finished work to my house but he did not meet me at home. He was very cautious so that nobody would tamper with the work, so he took it to his house and that was the day his house was razed. My work got burnt in the process. When I was told about the incident, I couldn’t believe it. I was shocked and hospitalised thereafter.  I thought he would have a back-up saved on his computer. When I asked, he said he had deleted it. The saving grace was that I still had the original manuscript that I was using. So I started all over again and spent another two years on it. When I finished, the chairman of the committee of professors who were coming to interview me had a coma in the night and was rushed to the hospital and I had to wait for another three months before he could come. Then we chose a date. On the morning of the interview, I was ready but that was the day the Academic Staff Union of Universities members began their strike which lasted for about seven months. It may be hard to believe but it was a big challenge for me when all these things happened, but thank God I can laugh over it now. After that, I was employed as a graduate assistant in the same faculty and later; I was made a lecturer in that same faculty.

Are you fulfilled now that you are a professor?

In anything, everyone wants to reach the apex of their career, even the billionaires are not resting. We all keep aiming for the highest and the best we can be. That is when satisfaction and the spirit of being an achiever come in. About my professorial pursuit, I wanted to get to the peak of my chosen field, and that was why I couldn’t be deterred by the daunting challenges on the way and now that I’m there, I’m happy. The prestige that comes with being a professor is just like the personal fulfilment that accompanies such great feat.

How was growing up?

I was born into a polygamous home in Lagos in 1943. My father, Joseph Akilapa, was a ladies’ man; intelligent, handsome and relatively rich. Despite being a member of the Catholic Church, he had eight wives. He was the one who translated the English Bible to Egun language but he died when he was still relatively young because he got into trouble with the British government then. He could do little for us before he died, so each of the wives had to take care of her children.  We all didn’t live together; I only went to the house on holidays, though we knew ourselves very well. Only two of us are remaining out of about 12. It was not a smooth ride then, but my mother tried her best.

What was the issue your father had with the British Government?

My father was a young man then and it was a time when  only the courageous could challenge the Europeans. It was a time when you could not fight them whether you were right or wrong. He had a school then. He started having problems when an education went to his school and jumped in through the window. As an educated man, he challenged the officer for doing that instead of going in through the door. That was how he got into trouble with them. In connivance, they dealt with him; took all he had and shut down his school. His operating license was seized, the school was shut down and even his zoological garden that was fetching him money was also closed. How could a man survive all those challenges at a time? They impoverished him; stripped him of his income, happiness and joy. So, he died eventually. What else could a man do? He couldn’t send us to school his own way because he died shortly after the issues he had with them, so our mothers had to take care of us.

How then did you manage your way through school?

It’s a long story. I married at an early age, and my husband, Tokunbo Fashola, was partly responsible for my education. We were in love and hardly separated. When you get married newly and you are in love, you can hardly allow your wife to leave your side. He took me to England but he didn’t allow me to finish my education there. He insisted that we return to Nigeria together and after our return I started having children. Unfortunately, I lost him when he got to the apex of his career. I was 36 and he was 47 years old then. We were all to travel to England for him to take up an appointment during which I was to continue my studies but he died before we could do that. So, the latter part of my education was after his death. We founded a school before he died, so the school played a prominent role in financing my education.

What made you go back to school?

When my husband died, I was mourning his death for a long time. You know what physical presence means to young lovers. But a friend advised me to go for higher studies instead of sitting down and crying. I put up some excuses such as having children to look after and other responsibilities but she encouraged me and I prayed about it; so I started. From the Advanced College, now called College of Education, Ijanikin, I went to the University of Lagos. She advised me to continue since I had the mental capacity, and I did. It seemed as if it wouldn’t happen, but with dogged determination, resilience, courage and calmness, the sad mood faded out gradually and I was able, through the grace of God, to surmount the problems.

Does it mean that you may not have given school another thought if your husband were alive?

I would have. In fact, I would have studied law. If we had the opportunity to take up the appointment undeterred by anything, I would have studied there. I love school, classrooms and education. I would have studied law in England if my husband were alive. It’s easier to study law in England.

You attended the university at an older age, how did you feel seeing younger ones in your class?

I wasn’t too old but I was above their age group. But I made up my mind to be young at heart. I was in my 40s and I still dressed like them. I got my first degree when I was 45, my Master’s degree when I was 49 and my Master of Philosophy degree was when I was around 52. I was a research fellow. Then, I finished my PhD at 62. People are usually surprised when they hear about all these achievements, but it started somewhere, with strong determination.

Have you always wanted to be in the academics or was it because you lost your husband and you wanted to get busy?

Not really. Even though I have always loved education,  I didn’t give it much attention when my husband was alive because I had the plan to study law in England when he resumed his appointment there, which he didn’t live to accomplish, and we were so much in love that we didn’t want to leave ourselves.

How long were you married before he died?

About 14 years. We were young lovers and we didn’t think about so many things other than having children and spending time together because we were so much in love. He was in the maritime and he got a fantastic job with the Nigerian National Shipping Line. He was to be the representative of Nigeria in Liverpool for the purchasing of a fleet for Nigeria. That was when Nigerian leaders were interested in doing things for their country.

It must have been a trying time, how did your children manage the shock of losing him?

We were all ready to travel; packing and tidying things up. We had gone to the children’s schools to apply for their transfer certificates and cards. The day he died, we spoke before I left the house for our school at Akoka. While I was there, our driver came and told me that Daddy wanted to see me and when we got close to the house, I saw people crying and wailing. That was all I saw and that was the end of it. I learnt he just slumped and died. We couldn’t go to England anymore. The children and I were very devastated. I had to go back to their schools to inform them that the children would come back. While the office in England was waiting to receive us in a grand style, he was dead and we were here mourning. It was very sad. But I thank God that we are all doing well now. It was the school which we co-founded that helped to finance my education and sustain the family.

How did you meet him?

We met at a party in Surulere, Lagos. He came to the party with his friend. When the two gentlemen came in, one was dark and handsome and the other wore a pair of glasses, he was fair and very handsome. That was him. When I saw him, I said to myself, ‘what a handsome man!’ Before they came, about two men had asked me for a dance which I declined because I didn’t feel like dancing. But when he came and asked for a dance, I jumped up (laughs). The music being played then was Baby jowo by Victor Olaiya. When the music was about to finish, he started talking to me; asking for my name, where I worked and everything he could ask in a rush. I was a teacher at a school on  Keffi Street, Obalende. Three days later, he came to the school to look for me and that was the beginning of the journey; it was a happy moment. I was also fascinated by his style of dressing, his friends used to call him Fashionable Fash.

Did any of your parents or family members oppose your relationship?

No. He told me he had a failed relationship and was finishing his divorce and that was when I was also stepping out of a relationship. My boyfriend was a footballer, who was too engrossed with goalkeeping. He was so good at what he was doing, but I didn’t think there was life in football, so I felt my future with him could be bleak. Then, football was not a lucrative or promising venture. His whole life was about the game and at that time, no young girl wanted to stay with a footballer, unlike now. I had to let go and that was when I met Toks (Tokunbo). Then, young girls wanted someone who studied law or medicine or journalism. Even though my husband wasn’t a lawyer, he was into shipping.

For your husband to have died at such a young age, traditionally, the family might insinuate that the wife had a hand in it. Did you have such experience?

Not at all. The Fashola family is not like that. They are educated people with close family ties.

Why didn’t you remarry, since you were young?

I tried it once but it didn’t work. Though we were not married, the relationship produced a child, who is now a lawyer; it was a different experience entirely, I had to let go of the relationship.

Your husband was an uncle to the incumbent Governor of Lagos State, Mr. Babatunde Fashola, what kind of relationship do you have with him?

The governor is a very humble man. We relate very well whenever we see, especially at family functions. The wife is the same; very polite, decent and humble. I don’t go to him to look for favours but if I meet him for anything, I know he would attend to me, but then, at my age, what else do I need? I am a happy woman. At my 70th birthday, he sent me a message and a gift, what else do I want?

With the level of relationship you have with him, one would have expected to meet you living at one of the highbrow areas. Why do you prefer living here?

I like it here. It’s central and I can access anywhere I want to go from here. This area is also devoid of the usual pressure, noise and traffic in those places you call highbrow areas. Here, we don’t have blood pressure. I even pity my children who live in those areas because of the traffic congestion they experience from time to time.

You ride in a bus that belongs to your school, one would have expected you to have a fleet of cars since you are related to the governor…

I have another car apart from the school bus, even though I prefer the bus sometimes because the security agents on the road don’t check school buses. Where do I want to go that my car won’t take me? I am contented with what I have and I’m fulfilled. My children own cars, what do I need them for?

Based on your relationship with the governor, do people come to you for favours?

A lot. People come to me because of that. But politely I tell them there is not much I can do. I was embarrassed sometimes ago. It was my first time in a church and I was given a form to fill. After the service, some members quickly accosted me, because of the name on the form and later in the day; towards evening, they came to my house and prayed for me, which was a good thing. Then they brought out a letter that I should help them give to the governor. I told them that it wouldn’t be possible for me to see him or deliver the letter. I only see him at family functions and it will be unfair to him if I meet him at a function and all I will do is to hand him a letter for assistance. So, as my widow’s mite, I put N5,000 in an envelope and gave to the church. The following day, the Pastor came to my house and said the church was shocked and surprised that someone like me could behave like that. So, these are some of the things I see. If there is a way I could help people in my own capacity, I do, not because of my relationship with the governor.

Is there anything you would wish to have now that you don’t have?

I wish I could have my husband back. It’s a lonely life being a widow. Anytime I have opportunity to talk to widows, I tell them not to overstretch themselves and avoid deep mourning. In my own case, I went to study. It’s important for widows to do something with their lives. That was why I ventured into academics.

What do you do at your leisure?

I write poems and my holiday is very important to me which is two months every year. Nowadays, I devote my time to church matters, counselling, philanthropic endeavours, especially in the areas of helping young widows and going to prisons for evangelism. In fact, that was where I spent my 70th birthday.

Tell us about your school.

The school started about 30 years ago and my husband was very instrumental to the establishment but he died about a year after. He drafted all the letters we needed for approval and sold lots of ideas to me. The school has been doing very fine. I have personal interest in the progress of my teachers and pupils. It gives me joy seeing children progress regardless of the cost. Education bridges the gap between the rich and the poor and that is why it should be given a worthy attention. I hope that, someday, we will get there.

What has been your happiest moment in recent times?

The best thing that happened to me last year was when the Chief Judge of Lagos State, Justice Ayotunde Philips, pardoned some inmates at Ikoyi prison. I visit the prison regularly and it hurts to see talents wasting there. If you see some of the inmates on musical instruments, you would marvel. We have pastors and elders among the inmates now. Going there, seeing them give their lives to Christ gladdens my heart.

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Alhaja Sinatu Ojikutu, former deputy governor of Lagos State, shares her life experiences with ADEOLA BALOGUN

If you are asked to thank God at 70, how would you go about it?

The Christians will say we dance with cymbals, and bells and drums and glorify God. That will be one aspect of the celebration. The other one is that of sober reflection about all that has passed. It will be full of thanksgiving. And as we say in Islam, while you are thanking God, you are asking for forgiveness and at the same time, asking for mercy. In life, it is not how you started but how you end. To me, it is an end of an era and the beginning of the extra one and it has to be spent in the service of God.

Will it be appropriate to call you a Lagos girl?

Very much so. I am a Lagos girl with an ingrain of Ekiti inside me. I don’t think anybody can be a Lagos girl more than I am. I was born and bred in Lagos; I was actually born at the Mercy Children Hospital. I started my elementary school in Lagos but along the line, because of what I learnt my mum saw as being precocious, she decided to send me to Ekiti where people are reputed to be studious. I was there to finish my primary school. For those years, I was in Ekiti for the school period while I was in Lagos for all the holidays. Ekiti discipline and austerity mingled with Lagos thrills and pomp in my life. Right from that period, I knew what it meant to have and not to have. This disciplined me a lot. Whenever I was in Ekiti, I never complained there was no meat in the soup or there was no electricity or tap water running. I blended with the people there and they loved me for that. Anytime I was in Lagos, I never missed Ekiti and anytime I was in Ekiti, I never missed Lagos. I would go and fetch water from the stream before we had a well at the back of our house in Ekiti and I enjoyed playing by the moonlight. Life in Ekiti was the complete opposite of what obtained in Lagos and it was amazing how I was able to cope. My siblings were brought over but they couldn’t withstand it and they ran back. God gave me the grace to be able to live in both worlds without any challenge.

How was girl education at that time?

It depended on one’s background and parentage. I had parents that were educated; my father by the standard of that time, was a rich man and it did not play with the education of his children. So also was my mum. All of us girls were given education. In those days, there were girls who did not go to school for one reason or the other. There was a particular girl that lived with us and actually worked for her male siblings to be through school and I found it odd at that time.

Where did you school in Lagos?

I went to one of the famous schools in Lagos at that time, Ereko Methodist School, a mixed school. My eldest sister went to Aunty Ayo while all of us went to Ereko Methodist School. After Ekiti, I went to Ladies of Apostles in Ijebu Ode and I was into athletics and sports like netball, the forerunner of basket ball. In the university, I did javelin and short-put. I was not a bookworm as such but I enjoyed reading. You would always find me in the library reading fiction.

What was your dream profession then as a schoolgirl?

This is an interesting aspect of my life. I never dreamt about anything I wanted to be in life; rather I only knew what I was not going to be. Most of the schools I attended then did not have sciences taught on a serious scale, perhaps I would have gone into sciences. I knew I didn’t want to be a typist because I didn’t want to be a secretary; I knew I didn’t want to be a lawyer even though my father was one. Right from the word go, I said I could not see white and call it black. At least I was sure of those two professions but I was open to other professions. My elder sister wanted to become a doctor even when we were not exposed to sciences. It was a serious setback for her. I was very good at reading and my English was one of the best; in fact I was an A student in English. I said I wanted to study a course that would allow me to move anywhere and I was lucky someone introduced me to economics. That was how I studied economics at the University of Lagos.

How was Unilag at that time?

Unilag at our own time, in terms of lifestyle, was a little higher than secondary school; it was restrictive. Those of us who wanted to prove that we should be freer as undergraduates ran foul of the university authorities. There was a time I was pulled out of hall of residence and asked to come from home for a semester because they said I came in after 7pm. We had some female lecturers and minders then who tried to oppress us. It wasn’t even me that came in late but I was not allowed to explain myself. The woman lecturer in charge then didn’t want to hear my explanation. I was written a letter and I wrote back but they said my letter was rude. It was a serious aspect of my life that could have cut short my education if the woman had her way. The next thing I had was I was referred to the senate and I had to engage the services of a lawyer. The woman referred the case to the senate and asked the university to expel me. The university senate sat down and looked at the case and instead asked me to come from home for one semester just to pacify the female lecturer. We later became friends but if she had her way, I would have been expelled for something I didn’t do. That incident encouraged me to champion causes of oppressed people. I was very popular among the male students then. I was privileged enough to have meal vouchers which I usually distributed among indigent students quietly though. Somehow, it became known and I was known as someone that gave out meal vouchers. The males were very warm with me and when some people felt females should be put forward for the position of vice president of the students union, my male friends approached me and encouraged me to contest with two other female candidates. My votes doubled those of the two females put together and that was how I emerged as first elected female vice president of the students union.

So that was where the politics started?

Of course, yes. Actually, the politics started from home. My father was a politician but of a special breed. He was one of the three that refused to cross carpet in those days in Lagos politics. He ran for election into the City Council as a councilor or something and politics then was interesting. The highest then was to twist names of opponents unlike the evil things politicians engage in nowadays. There was no violence and Lagos politics was quite interesting then. Later, my father went to the Western House of Assembly then as an independent candidate representing Ekiti. He was NCNC but because he could not run on its platform, he became an independent candidate. After the crisis in the Western Region, he came back home and said he was done with politics. He actually didn’t practise law as such; he quit politics to go into business. That in a way helped in shaping my life, that you don’t have to cut corners before you can amount to something in life. Despite quitting politics when he did, God still blessed my father with wealth.

When you came out of the university, did you work?

Interestingly, when I graduated, I was not under any pressure to work as others who had family members to cater for. My father left a will that all his children should be allowed to attain any level of education they desired; he died in 1959. I was living with an elder brother who was a judge. One day, he had guests from a bank who held a meeting with him. I served them refreshment as a dutiful sister and when he was introducing me to the guests, he said here is my sister that just graduated from the University of Lagos. Not that I didn’t want to work, in fact some of my mates were given appointments right from campus; some entered the civil service but I didn’t want that for my life. One of the guests engaged me in a conversation and asked me what I studied and what I intended to do and I said I didn’t know yet. The man asked me whether I would like to work with them (They were from National Bank). He asked me to apply which I did. I was interviewed and was given a job. Incidentally, my father was one of the original directors of the bank. That was how I joined National Bank. I was the first female university graduate the National Bank employed and I was working with Mr. J A Adebayo who was working directly with the General Manager. I joined banking as a senior executive, working as his assistant. We were on the executive floor. Later, I decided I wanted to go to operations and I was posted to Ibadan. Before I left the National Bank, I wrote a letter warning that with the underhand practices that I noticed, the bank might be heading for trouble. Whether my letter was given credence or not, I didn’t wait to see because immediately I dropped it, I went off to America for my Masters. Then, it was very dangerous for anyone to write such a letter. I already got my visa, arranged my travelling and I just took off as soon as I put in my resignation and the warning letter. I went for my Masters at Long Island University in America where the Central Bank of Nigeria spotted and recruited me. In fact, when I came back with CBN, I met some of my former colleagues on Broad Street who said National Bank had not crumbled, just to remind me of my prediction but not long after, the bank went into distress. I saw it coming especially when I was in the supervision department. I was overseeing our operations in the western region up to Asaba. I had to tour the branches to examine the books and I observed a lot of bad practices going on at the National Bank. Managers would just die in accidents and all that. For me, anytime I was travelling, the driver would drive me out but as soon as we were out of reach, I would take over the steering wheel and I warned my driver to keep the knowledge to himself. So at the branches, they would not even want me to check the books, they had already prepared gifts for me to take back. They would put all sorts in my car but I would just distribute all those things to women along the road. My driver was not happy but I compensated him by buying things for him with my own money. God just gave me that vision to be very careful but I did not remain so long in the department before I asked to be transferred to operations but the little I saw informed the warning letter I wrote.

In all, how many years did you spend with the National Bank?

I was with the National Bank from 1970 to 1973 and I had two promotions. I worked with Mr. Adebayo who was a disciplinarian and it impacted so much on me. He was a strict boss but very kind and knowledgeable. We were young and we were the toast then but I never experienced any sexual harassment or any senseless propositions from men. I worked with men who were disciplined and being a female university graduate was such a big deal then. The men knew I was on the same level with them and nobody dared tell me any nonsense; the respect was there. I was not even the kind of person to tell nonsense; men then found me intimidating to ask out even though I had more male friends than the females. Many females always wondered how I found it easy to relate to men which was not easy for most of them then. Even for you to say you wanted to befriend me, you had to really think about it. In fact, I had a man who came to me and said he had really been admiring me and I then asked him to say exactly what he wanted. You know, girls would not ask you what you want, they already assume that they know what you want. But in my own case, I would ask you to state precisely what you wanted and pointedly. Along the line, people would malign you if they could not get you. There was nobody I could not approach. I remember walking in to meet Mr. Ola Vincent then at CBN that I wanted to be in operations. He said he had seen my letter but that he considered it uncommon to take women there. He said supposing I was transferred to a very far place in the east and I told him I had worked in a commercial bank and knew what operation was all about. He shook his head and asked, ‘when are you getting married?’ I told him I would get married; in fact I came back from America engaged but that would not stop me from going anywhere I was transferred. I had that kind of relationship with men which many women didn’t find it easy unless when they were in bed with them. I always told them that I would rather use the brain God gave me instead of using bed to entice men. I told them that by the time I started doing that, the grace of God would desert me. So in my career as a banker, I didn’t mix work with bed and this did not endear me to the opposite sex. At CBN, I would say I was one of those who made women to be considered for positions and be posted to operations. I would wear trousers to work but I was sanctioned for it. I was told I could not wear trousers to work but I told them that I found it easier than wearing skirts that would expose my legs and cause distractions. But I was told that was not CBN culture but today, women wear trousers to work.

But eventually, a man summoned enough courage to talk to you and got engaged with you…

Oh, along the line, I had boyfriends that other females snatched from me; maybe I was not accommodating enough and the men found other girls more accommodating. My husband I met in America when I went to do my Masters. He was a graduate assistant in the university and he was among the panel that interviewed me. There were four of them sitting and I noticed that he was looking at me and because of that, I didn’t want him to be the one to interview me. Even though my turn fell to the man next to him, he still said hello, where are you from? I almost didn’t answer him but to keep his eyes off me, I said I was from Ivory Coast. Interestingly, he believed me and he lost interest immediately. Then, he was befriending a Jamaican girl. I too thought he was a black American without realising he was a Nigerian. One day, I was chatting away with a Yoruba guy, Peter Adeniji on the corridor on my way to the library and I didn’t know he passed by. After the chatting, he went to meet Adeniji to ask about the Ivory Coast girl that was chatting with him in Yoruba. Adeniji told him that I was an Isale Eko girl and laughed that I told him that I was from Ivory Coast and he believed it. Then, I was just coming from a relationship that went awry and didn’t want anything to do with men. Adeniji actually introduced us and we clicked. Even though he was Ojikutu, he left for America from Liberia. From the day one that my husband met me, he made up his mind to woo me and make me his wife. I left Nigeria not to come back for a long time and I asked him to go and visit having been away for a long time. But he insisted we got engaged before leaving. A lot of pressure was put on him to get another girl when he got to Nigeria but he stood his ground and waited for me. He fenced everyone off with my big picture in the living room and told them he already had a fiancé.

We learnt you had challenge at a time in your marriage…

Oh yes, it took me a long time to bear a child. I would conceive but I was losing the pregnancies. It was a big challenge but my husband stood solidly by me. There was this pressure from one of his sisters who wanted to control everything but God took control. My mother-in-law was the best; she stood by me throughout because that was the time I was having a rough time at my place of work. After leaving CBN, I went to head the Lagos State Transport Company which was a turbulent terrain. I took my discipline there but I met a lot of resistance from the workers and they embarked on a 21-day strike, demanding that I should be removed. I incurred their wrath when I stopped them from stealing tokens and diverting routes. I didn’t know some people were making money with leave allowances, so I insisted that anyone going on leave should have their leave allowance. That stopped funds they were using for business. I incurred the wrath of the board who wanted us to give contracts to people who would not perform or to buy things at exorbitant prices. So, I was up against the entire organisation and they planned a strike. Alhaji Lateef Jakande was the governor then. My board chairman, Mr. Soetan was with me, he understood everything; there were politicians on the board who said they must make money to recoup what they spent on campaign. Jakande investigated and decided to shut down the place. At that time, Lagos transportation depended on LSTC as there were no yellow buses then. Then, the military was in power at the centre and because of the strike, I was invited to a meeting with General Musa Yar’Adua at Dodan Barracks. Jakande said he would not remove me; the workers were sackedand he said whoever was interested in working should reapply. That was when I decided to go back to CBN but Mr. Soetan told Jakande not to allow me to go. Jakande went on air to say he had appointed me as Controller of Estates. He said the problems of Cof O would be solved once and for all as he had put a woman who knew her onions in charge. Coupled with the difficulty in bearing a child and pressure of work, my mother-in-law stood by me and pampered me. But to God be the glory, I was blessed with a child when I was appointed as executive director of the Bank for Commerce and Industry by the Babangida administration. I don’t wish any woman in marriage to be barren because our society is not kind at all.

How did you become the deputy governor?

That is another story. God has a way of rewarding hard work. At work, I was known for hard work and I followed assignments to the letter; some liked me for it while others loathed me for it. When politics came back and they were looking for a female deputy governorship candidate to pair with Sir Michael Otedola in the Nigeria Republican Convention, people who apparently had followed my track record recommended me. I was not an active politician then but a civil servant. I understand that when I was suggested and some argued that I was not a Muslim, Dr. Babatunde Fadipe who was close to Otedola campaign said I was a Muslim and mentioned my Muslim name, Sinatu. All along, I had been bearing Aderoju Ojikutu. My nomination was well received and got positive reaction and that was how I was contacted and drawn into politics. Interestingly, my work with the Cof O helped a great deal particularly in areas like Alimosho, and the new areas where people said they got their Cof O because of me. My candidature boosted Otedola’s fortune. I also learnt that Jakande played a role even from the prison then.

So, how was the office of the deputy governor?

The office of the deputy governor is what the governor wants it to be. If the governor does not want the deputy governor to exist, it will not exist and that is very sad. A good governor will use his deputy to the best advantage to assist in governance and the deputy too should not do anything to undermine her boss. It also depends on how you come about your deputy; the office is what the governor wants according to the constitution and until they assign some specific roles to it, the situation of rancor or redundancy will not change. There are some traditional roles that the deputy should handle or there should be an understanding between the governor and the deputy to work together. A deputy should be as qualified as the governor to enhance governance.

But did you work together with Otedola without any rancour?

We worked together but I was not allowed to apply the knowledge and the vision I carried to the office. There was a time that I had to say I was not a mere mirror in the office; we had people who wanted to be deputy governor more than the deputy. They had a way of going to the governor to say things to make him feel bad. They made it as if I wanted to overshadow him which was not so. I was very visible and unfortunately that proved to be my undoing. Anytime they wanted anything from Baba, they went to him and told him things to upset him, painting a picture that I was doing more than what I should do. Then, Lagos was saying we were too slow and I was trying to make the governor realise that the complaints from the populace were becoming disturbing but some people had a different opinion. At a point, the secretary to the government and myself were invited by Oba Oyekan because we were from the Island and were not relating well. I said that by the time I was done, I wanted to be able to walk on the street of Lagos without being stoned. At a point, I asked for a medical leave and thank God for that move, Baba and I would probably have had a showdown. If I did not endure and fought, probably that would have put paid to the idea of considering women for the post of deputy governor in the state.

Was it out of bitterness that you took Lagos State to court over pension?

No, I fought for my right. I actually did that from looking at the plights of the former public office holders. The Federal Government gave directives to make provisions for pension and you now made your own and say the law starts from the time of Tinubu; it is like they are saying there are two constitutions. I asked for my entitlements by first discussing with Raji Fasola and he said I should go and put it into writing which I did. I waited for two years without any response. When I sent a reminder, I got a letter that said I was not qualified. I went to court as the last resort and I got judgement that they should pay me. The government went on appeal which they have abandoned now. But the new governor has promised to do something about it.

As the former deputy governor, how did you feel when you were declared wanted for fraud about two years ago?

That was a very terrible low moment in my life. I informed the police about my travel plans even after I had repaid part of the money. This is what happened. I had forgotten about my husband’s plot of land in Lekki, so some people approached a relative of my husband with a Cof O which they claimed was for my husband’s land and she informed me. I invited my agent to investigate the land and he came back to say that the land was still vacant. But unfortunately, our own plot of land had been occupied by someone else while the agent mistook the vacant one as our own and a transaction took place. It was a genuine mistake and when my attention was called to it and the buyer demanded for a refund, I paid some and promised to balance up when I got some funds I was expecting. I never knew that some people were bent on tarnishing my reputation and blew it out of proportion. They said I had put the fraud money into my trading; I am not a trader. As I said, I informed the police I was travelling only to hear that I had been declared wanted. We settled the case anyway but I am in court over my husband’s land. We are still in court.

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